Why do married men masturbate? This is a question that I’ve been thinking about for most of my marriage. I see a lot of arguments on both sides of the fence but the Bible isn’t explicitly clear on the topic, so that leaves me with logic, as I’ve always loved this quote:
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.
-Galileo Galilei
Let’s look at some stats on masturbation
According to a Kinsey Institute survey, 72% of respondents said they used porn to masturbate. So let’s look at some porn statistics in Christian circles.
- In 1996 a Promise Keepers survey at a stadium event revealed that over 50% of the attending men were involved with pornography in the last week. You can bet that number is lower than reality as most people wouldn’t admit it. Plus, this is only in the last week.
- 37% of pastors say that porn is a current struggle.
- Over half of evangelical pastors say they have watched porn in the last year. (Scary, eh)
- IN a 2000 Christianity Today survey, 33% of clergy admitted to having visited a porn site. Of those, 53% have visited these sites “a few times” in the past year. 18% visit porn sites between a couple of times a month and more than once a week.
- 57% of pastors say that addiction to porn is the most sexually damaging issue to their congregation (Christians and Sex Leadership Journal Survey, March 2005)
- 29% of born again adults in the U.S. feel it is morally acceptable to view movies with explicit sexual behaviour (The Barna Group)
- 47% of families say porn is a problem in their home (Focus on the Family, October 1, 2003)
Why are we discussing porn? Well, because if they are watching porn, you can bet they are masturbating. But, now let’s look at some masturbation stats:
A survey of 600 Christian men by Dr. Archibald Hart revealed:
- 61% of married Christian men masturbate.
- 82% of these have “self-sex” on average once a week, 10% have sex with self 5-10 times per month. 6% more than 15 times per month, 1% more than 20 times a month.
- 13% of Christian married men said they felt it was normal.
At a poll at The Marriage Bed forums, over half the men said they were having sex with their spouse once a week or less.
Data into knowledge
In the above survey by Dr. Achibald Hart, we see 61% of Married Christian Men masturbate (wives, take a look at your husband, over 50/50 chance), and only 13% of them feel it is normal. That means that 53% of all Christian married men are masturbating and don’t feel it is normal. Take another look at your husband if you are a wife there is a 50/50 chance he’s masturbating and doesn’t feel it’s OK, so he might not be sharing it with you.
Again, in the survey by Dr. Hart, if you add the figures up, 60% of married Christian men are having sex with themselves once a week or more. While in the marriage bed poll, over half the men said they were having sex with their spouse once a week or less. Who wants to bet that a large overlap of these is the people who are having sex with themselves as often or more than with their spouse?
Now, if 53% of all Christian men are masturbating and not feeling ok with it, and over half of the men at the Promise Keepers convention said they have watched porn in the last week, that sort of adds up to a scary Venn diagram with a major overlap. I posit that a very large majority of these Christian men are masturbating while watching porn.
What does the Bible say?
As I said, there are none that explicitly talk about masturbating, but I think we can find some applicable verses:
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Matthew 5:28
If you are masturbating and thinking about someone other than your wife, this is adultery. Plain and simple.
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
Ephesians 5:3
Now, the standing that masturbating is sexual immorality is weak, so I’m not going to argue that one here. But I will argue that a lot of men are masturbating out of greed. They are taking what they want where they can get it instead of where God designed your sexual energy to be focused (a man’s wife).
Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith.
1 Timothy 1:18-19
Here Paul tells Timothy to hold on to the faith and a good conscience. As we saw earlier from the stats, most men who are masturbating do not have a clear conscious about it.
It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honourable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God;
1 Thessalonians 4:3-5
And a call to control yourself, to not be overtaken by passionate lusts.
But, I think the largest argument is not an explicit verse, but rather the overriding message of the Bible with regard to marriage and sexuality. You should devote 100% of your sexual energy to your spouse. That means when you are unmarried, you don’t expend sexual energy. Otherwise, by doing so, you are cheating on your future spouse. We call this fornication. When you are married, focus all your energy on your spouse. If you don’t, we call this adultery. So, if one is married and masturbating alone, focusing his sexual energy on something other than his spouse (porn or an idealistic version of his wife, or just focusing on his own pleasure), then I’m going to call that adultery, and the Bible is very clear on that.
Now, I say this in all love, having struggled with all this before. I have a 15-year history of porn addiction, from my teenage years through most of my marriage. There were times I could not perform sexually because I had already masturbated too many times that day. There were times I avoided sexual encounters because I was worried my wife would realize I was being sexually active without her. And at all times I was hiding something from my wife.
The damage this causes a relationship is not measurable, but it is substantial, even if you wife is not aware of it. If she is aware, the damage is greatly increased.
So, I understand that some people will still think masturbation is OK, that there is no harm, that it’s not adultery, it’s not sinful and they are doing it without lust, so who is it harming? Talk to your spouse about it, see if you are harming them by masturbating. If your spouse doesn’t know, then I submit that you are lying to them by not telling them part of your sexual activity.
The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.
1 Corinthians 7:4
Your body is not yours alone to do with as you like or feel, and if you are using it in a way they do not approve, I believe you are breaking the spirit of this verse.
Why do married men masturbate?
In short, I think there are three reasons.
- Ignorance – They don’t realize what effect it might be having on their marriage
- Selfishness – They know but don’t care, they are just chasing an orgasm
- Addiction – Some are addicted, and they need help. Loving, but firm, help.
Do you know of any other reasons?
P.S. Since writing this post, I’ve received a bunch of other questions about masturbation in marriage. You might be interested in these:
- Is masturbation a sin?
- Why masturbation is a problem, whether you’re married or single
- Is Mutual Masturbation OK for Married Christians?
- Mutual Masturbation Survey Results
- If masturbation is sinful, what do you do if you don’t orgasm during sex?
- What Is Your Opinion Of Solo Masturbation Due To Separation?
- Is masturbation for medical reasons okay?
- What do you do if you suspect your spouse of secretly masturbating?
- My Husband Admitted To Masturbating, How Do I Get Over The Hurt?
- Why does my low-drive spouse masturbate?
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! ” So, if one is married and masturbating alone, focusing his sexual energy on something other than his spouse (porn or an idealistic version of his wife, or just focusing on his own pleasure), then I’m going to call that adultery, and the Bible is very clear on that.” – I couldn’t have said that better myself! This is a topic I am very passionate about. Being a spouse who was GREATLY affected by my husband’s issue with pornography and masturbation, it causes lasting damage. And I do not want to teach my son that this is acceptable. I loved how you addressed before and after marriage. I just loved this post. It is everything I believe and feel and the statistics are staggering. But so true. We should have a heart to help men (and women) overcome what most of the world find’s acceptable. LUST. It’s a huge trap and Satan so easily entraps people, and further gives them the justification for it to be OK. When it is NOT. OK…I’m going to stop or there will be a whole blog post in the comment section. Thank you for writing this post. I’ll be linking to it when I write about my own thoughts on pornography and masturbation. Thank you for having the courage to write about it, regardless of what people will think.
You’re welcome! This was the first comment I saw after writing the post, and it encouraged me so much. Thank you for your comment! And if you want to write a post as a comment, I’m OK with that!
I have been battling this subject for years. Even after committing my life to Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior in 1984. I have had problems and have Sinned when I knew better. I am thankful for these articles that I have read and read over again. I am praying for God’s Help with my mind and body. Or should I say His mind and His body. I have been bought with a price. Please pray for me.
We will definitely pray Scott. It’s worth the fight when you get clean. Look for triggers or situations where it’s too easy to masturbate. Then work to remove them from your life or mitigate them.
This was so refreshing. My husband often makes me feel stupid because I tell him his masturbation bothers me. I try to make him understand that the effects are deep into my core. We have been married 12 years, and I recently found out he has been masturbating all along (only because I caught him in the act). There have been more times that I can count when he turned his back to me in bed. I now assume it was because of his masturbation that he was unable to peform for me. I cannot make him understand how much his masturbating affects our sexual intimacy. I feel inadequate and second best, which breaks my spirit and leaves me feeling rejected. 🙁
Your story mirrors my own completely. I’m feeling extremely alone in my struggle with my husband. Like you said this effects me to my very core.
Your husband is an example of men having a hang up about women’s breast sizes. Women having different breast sizes. Some growing them at earlier ages than others. Younger women sometimes being more busty than other women older than them. My relationship with my ex and my former in laws evolved around that. My ex being delighted that I have larger breasts than his mom. His mom telling me that she’s glad I got bigger tits than her. Those are the men’s hang ups and passions.
They didn’t mention breasts at all… I’m not sure how you got to this conclusion.
I just found out my husband was masterbating., when i was picking up dirty socks. The sperm was on the socks. He told me it was normal and he was not wacthing porn. I dont believe him.
“Normal” does not equal “okay”, porn or no porn.
What do you think would happen if you went to him and told him how it made you feel? Not in an accusatory way, but in a “sharing your heart” sort of way? What if you followed up with “I would love it if you would quit. I’ll be available whenever you need to help with the urges, but from now on, I’d like it if you only had an orgasm with me.”?
If you catch your husband jerking it, why not offer to help him finish?
I think that’s a lot of men’s fantasy. It’s rewarded selfishness. It’s like a kid being caught sneaking a cookie, and then being given a second one instead of doled out a punishment. Do you think that kid would learn not to steal cookies? Wouldn’t that be sending the message that the wife thinks her husband masturbating is acceptable, even arousing? And it may be, and there may be a time for that, but if he’s been masturbating without intending to involve his wife, then I’m not sure that’s behaviour that should be rewarded.
Michael you assume the husband wants that. Some men would freak out if their wife offered to give them a hand.
Yeah, that’s also true. Because sex with an actual person means intimacy and vulnerability. Masturbation is “risk free” sex.
I am going through the same thing with my husband. When they are in denial or thinking nothing is wrong. What are we to do as wifes.. Besides feeling rejected, not good enough. How do we cope with the feelings?
I can truely relate to you…husband’s don’t have any idea how it bothers, hurts, play with the wives emotions and most of all how to trust them especially when your not around them…
Jamie, I’d like to know how pornography has affected you when finding out about it. I just found out about it after 17 years of marriage. It has emotionally damaged my soul and sense of self worth
Recently I spoke with an older woman that told me that their husband just confessed that he started masturbating and looking at porn at a relatively young age. This pattern continued even after he got married even though his wife has a high sex drive and was a willing partner almost all the time unless sick or another valid reason. He said it wasn’t constant but seemed to be a coping devise when under stress etc. He also said that now it is not an issue.
In listening more I learned that this man grew up in a Christian home with a very passive father and a very selfish, dominating, judgmental mother. Now in counseling at middle age he realizes that the core of the masturbation starting was because his life was out of control. Just like anorexics he felt that sex was the only thing he could control. It became a coping mechanism. It also made him feel very dirty and guilty. Also he only recently admitted this to his loving wife. Her immediate reaction was…no wonder because your mom is such a control freak. Upon investigating this claim I found that it is very true. In his case his wife encouraged counseling for the mother issues and hopefully he will tell the male counselor about the self sex addiction. He also was diagnosed with prostate cancer a number of years and after treatment was left with ED due to venous leakage after 48 radiation treatments. He felt that God was punishing him for his closet sex. They are working through this as a couple. Surprisingly the wife admitted to using a vibrator on a regular basis during the time he was having treatment and after due to his lack of interest in sex and the ED. It was very healing to both admit this issue. In the wife’s case she said she did her best to only think about her husband and their sex life when masturbating. Due to her high sex drive this was the only way she felt she kept her sanity during this hard time in their marriage. She also admitted to me that she would use the vibrator while her husband aroused her in other ways which I told her I thought was a non issue.
On the other hand the husband admitted that he had fantasy issues and that was why he felt guilty. He told his wife that in no way was he dissatisfied with her or their sex life and that this was a problem separate from their marriage and their good sex life. He also admitted looking at porn magazines from a young age and that his mother found one under his mattress and made such a fool of him in front of the rest of the family that he hated her and still struggles with hatred toward his mother. He is getting help and his wife is encouraging him in every way she can and is not being judgmental.
Both the husband and wife are in counseling and they are working through this issues with Christian counselors. By being open with each others and with God there is a real healing going on and she feels the marriage is the best it has ever been. They have grown children and an empty nest like my husband and I do. Often this is like a second honeymoon for couples who are truly in love. There is also the freedom knowing that there will be no unplanned pregnancy which totally frees up the wife. For them it is a win win.
She told me that she does not agree with the concept that all masturbation is wrong but believes when it involves fantasies of other partners then there is a real issue.
I felt this was a very healthy attitude. I have served on a support site for years as a moderator on sexual issues for couples that have gone through PCa…prostate cancer. I open myself up for other women to talk to me via email and or phone. The story I just related is not uncommon at all.
Gracie
Are you kidding? If every man suppressed his need to ejaculate this would be a very very different and awful world
Yeah, we might learn-self control…
Amen
There is another reason for masturbation, that AC mentions. For many men, what started out as an act of sexual release has turned into a coping mechanism for life, just like drugs and alcohol. Feeling hurt, rejected, stressed, resentful, bored? Take a dose of your “drug” (masturbation with or without porn) and you’ll feel better, at least temporarily. So, many men who get plenty of sex, misuse the God given pleasure to deal with emotional issues that aren’t sexual at all.
I feel that falls under the other ones. If they knew the damage they were doing (ignorance), then they’d quit, or continue either because they’re addicted and are having trouble breaking free, or they have just decided to be selfish.
“many men who get plenty of sex”… really? Those must be the guys who also ride unicorns.
Just because you don’t get plenty of sex doesn’t mean plenty of men don’t. The average from my surveys is about 2-3 times per week. Some more than that of course to offset those that have less (presumably like yourself). Would you consider that plenty?
No Bill, it’s true. My husband has an always available and willing wife, and yet he chooses to ignore that fact, play video games into the early hours of the morning instead of coming to bed with me, and then masturbate in the shower most mornings.
He knows I know, he lies about it half the time and makes ridiculous excuses tbe rest. I have told him how rejected, lonely and prioritised out of his life I feel, but he hasn’t done a thing to change this habit. (And no, I’m not unattractive, overweight, hopeless in bed or any other stupid excuse you may be dreaming up as to why my husband does this. The problem is entirely down to him and his choices- he just seems utterly incapable of making better ones).
This has gone on for almost 6yrs of marriage now- it, and many other choices he makes, are so destructive on our relationship.
I truly feel for all you ladies out there tolerating this problem as I am.
Girl, I could have written this exact comment myself. Even the “almost 6 years of marriage” part. I am a sexual woman, and would always be willing, if my husband would bother to give me the time of day. They just do not care about reality, and prefer a fantasy.
I am so glad that I do not believe nonsense like this anymore. I unashamedly masturbate frequently, and my wife knows and is perfectly fine with it. She also does masturbates. At most it is something we laugh at, but normally it is just something that is normal for us. In fact, more often than not she is in the same room with me while I am doing it, we also both will view porn from time to time, both together and separately (are tastes are somewhat different). You really need to get over yourselves and your hangups about this, it is one of the most natural human activities there is. You will not always both be in the mood or be able to at the same time, masturbation is the next best thing. I am so lucky to be married to someone who is enlightened a out and comfortable with sexuality. I really feel sorry for all of you repressed neo-Puritan Victorians.
I think you’ve purposely expressed one of Satan’s plans: convincing people that keeping purity with regards to sex means that you are repressed and uncomfortable with sexuality. Many of my readers, myself included, have excellent sex lives that are varied, adventurous and exciting without needing to compromise self-control or the sanctity of marriage.
There’s no need to feel sorry for us. We’re having a fantastic time.
By the way, we can’t be neo-puritan Victorians, we don’t live in the Victorian era. Maybe neo-puritan millennials. I’m not sure how to express “the digital age” as an adjective.
“…without needing to compromise self-control or the sanctity of marriage…” Applying Self control beyond issues of consent and collaboration, within the sanctity of marriage, fits the description of repression. Any such limits are arbitrary and extra-biblical.
While you can make an argument against porn, ICE’s example of consentual and collaborative, mutual masturbation, speaks more to what the bible says about sex within marriage, than what the bible speaks against.
By what standard? I mean, if my line in the sand is extra-biblical and arbitrary, then so is yours, isn’t it?
Rather, I think that the Bible is clear that sex is design to be shared between a married couple. Solo masturbation doesn’t fit that. It seems to me to be outside of the biblical model, and thus not an arbitrary line.
I share more of my thoughts in this post.
Hi.
I’m a married man here. I like the subject. But I don’t think as always in today’s society that everything is clear like it should be.
I have never masturbated until I got married.
Due to the fact that my wife does not put out enough. As it was mentioned in the post earlier. men only have sex once or less a week with their wives.
I do not feel that this is a trick question of why.
I’m pretty sure more men would rather have sex with their wives then to watch porn and masturbate.
So I really think there is more of the topic that is missing.
Like why are the wives helping push thier man to porn than to have sex with their husbands??
Bingo
When my husband and I were having a lot of problems and he was severely depressed, there were long periods of time where he would not have sex with me. This in part had to do with his depression, because that tends to completely kill libido; but it also had to do with a lack of intimacy in our relationship overall. I mean a lack of emotional and spiritual intimacy. We were having a lot of struggles, and he was also dealing with terrible things that happened in his childhood. I knew that he masturbated occasionally – not often, because of his lowered libido, but still sometimes – and my heart was just broken because I didn’t understand why he would do that instead of having sex with me, when I was always available to him and desperately wanted to be held in his arms again. I asked a Christian therapist about it, and he said that often men masturbate because there is no real intimacy involved, and they are hurting and it’s too difficult to deal with real intimacy. Not to mention that because we were lacking intimacy in other areas of our relationship (also due to his depression, because he refused to talk to me or spend time with me at ALL), sex felt empty sometimes. The “porn” that he looked at was of me, but he was still getting his pleasure apart from me, and it hurt me so much. However, after talking to the therapist, I felt more compassion for him, and more understanding, because I knew he was hurting.
When he started taking medication, he became happy again, but was dealing with sexual side effects that made it difficult to impossible to orgasm sometimes. He was ashamed at first and didn’t want to try, but after a lot of encouragement, and love, and reassuring him of his prowess in the bedroom and how much he pleasures me (because he really is amazing “in bed” – he blows my mind every time), and taking the focus off of climax, our sex life went through the roof. Sometimes he doesn’t orgasm, but that’s ok, no big deal, we still enjoyed ourselves; and most of the time he does. We then learned that apparently when side effects make it so that orgasm is impossible through intercourse, it’s often easier to orgasm through masturbation. We talked about it and decided that we wanted to keep sexual activities always between the two of us, never solo, so now if he can’t climax through intercourse, I’ll give him a hand job. He says I’m better than he is at manual stimulation, plus he gets to see me naked while I’m doing it!
Anyway, that’s our trip through the solo masturbation issue. I just thought I’d bring up other possible reasons for it, other than simply lust – that is, when intimacy is too painful, or when it’s difficult to achieve orgasm through intercourse. But, both of those issues are best and most effectively handled as a team, which is what I always told my husband and he finally grew to understand. By the way, we are “Team Awesome” and our fort (apartment) is “Fort Kick-Ass.”
It sounds like you’ve found some excellent ways of coping with difficult situations.
I’m glad I read this and I’m disappointed at the same time. Not one single comment that I read truly addressed the husband who is dealing with an unwilling wife to fulfill his sexual needs regularly. It’s not a joke that many women shut down sexually after marriage, and men have to live with a wife who’s completely different intimately than the one he fell in love with. Please do not undermine the fact that some women change and become less sexually interested over time. Men want to be wanted and too many wives are having sex out of obligation, if hardly ever. So please consider that some men turn to porn and please themselves to keep from turning to other women.
I believe I addressed this in the post – her bad behaviour is not an excuse for yours.
Really appreciate your frank discussion on this difficult subject.
And I appreciate all the comments and support!
I love this! It’s very hard for me to understand this, and I’m trying my best to see it from a guys point of view.
I do my best to find analogies or explanations to show our perspective as men, but they are only analogies, unclear pictures of a confusing reality.
I think, from a married woman’s standpoint, we have this idea that ignorance is bliss. I believe that generally we are aware that it is probably going on, especially if our bedroom activities are infrequent, BUT we don’t have a clear understanding of what exactly masturbation entails. We just think, again ignorantly, that it’s just something men do and it really has nothing to do with us. Thank you for writing about a difficult topic, hopefully you will open the eyes of many women and men struggling with this. I do believe that it is most often as much a woman’s problem as it is the mans and that with open communication and shared responsibility as to why it’s occurring, many married couples can come to a realization as to why it’s harmful to any marriage relationship and then take steps to reduce a husband’s needing this as a sexual outlet.
Yes, I think there is a general ignorance among wives about this. I say that not to be mean, but if you ask the wives of a congregation if they think their husband is watching porn and/or masturbating, I would bet most would say no. However the statistics nearly all agree that close to half, if not more than half of the men are watching porn, including the pastors, elders and deacons. This is an extremely prevalent sin in our churches that goes undetected most of the time.
Great post! Good to see that someone is writing about this subject. I’ve talked to groups about this many a time, and have to agree with what you’ve said. However, I’d have to add another reason to your list there at the end. You alluded to it strongly in the post, but for some reason didn’t mention it at the end. That is, they are sexually unsatisfied in their marriage relationship. Their wife isn’t fulfilling their needs, so they are taking care of it on their own. (BTW, it is possible to masturbate while thinking about one’s own wife. But, I still contend that this is adultery.)
God created men with a strong sexual drive. While the exact frequency can be argued, men are created to need sexual release daily. 1 Cor 7:5 alludes to this, although it doesn’t state a particular time period. However, there are two things from the Jewish culture of the day, which are very applicable:
1 – the Jewish rabbis (and Paul was a Jewish rabbi) taught that a couple should make love a minimum of once a day, if the man’s profession allowed him to stay at home.
2 – the Jewish understanding of the principle mentioned in 1 Cor 7:5 was that a couple could make a decision to abstain for a maximum of one week. So, most Christian couples (according to the Marriage Bed survey) are hitting that maximum, or more as their norm. In other words, their best is the Jewish worst.
Both of these teachings are historically documented in the Talmud.
So, while I won’t say that the man is right for masturbating, I will say that if he is, it’s a symptom of a deeper problem in the couple’s sexual intimacy. That issue needs to be dealt with as part of the solution.
Thank you for the fascinating information about the Jewish Rabbi’s and their teachings. I will have to research that.
As for your comment about a 4th reason: sexually unsatisfied husbands, I still contend that my 3 reasons covers them. If the husband is unsatisfied and is unselfish, not ignorant and not addicted, he still will not resort to masturbating and or porn. I’m not saying it’s easy, I’m saying I think it’s possible.
I think too often we men use masturbating/porn as an escape, a way of dealing with our refusing wives instead of dealing with the real issue, that our wife is refusing. Instead of getting counselling, we turn to an easier alternative, to cut our wife our of the equation.
No one said this marriage stuff would be easy, we are fighting for our lives here.
While I agree with what you’re saying, I still have a problem with it. Too many women have pointed the finger at their husbands as being bad, because of their sexual needs. Is a man wrong for masturbating? I’d have to say yes. Are your reasons valid? Absolutely! But, to absolve the wife of all responsibility is not right. If she refuses sex, he should be able to control himself. But, she’s still for refusing sex. She’s placing temptation in his path, something that we’re warned in the Bible not to do.
By no means am I letting wives off the hook. This is a discussion about masturbation, not about Refusing wives. I’ve touched on that subject many times, the most popular post on my site is Is Sex A Need Or A Want. I’ve gotten many comments and emails from wives, some who 100% agree, some who have turned their marriage around based on the post. None who disagreed have dared comment yet, but I’m hoping one day someone will so we can open a dialogue.
If that’s all you disagree with (that wives have responsibility too), then we are in total agreement. My point here is that regardless of the wives actions, the man is still responsible for his actions. Both can be at fault, it doesn’t have to be a one or the other sort of scenario.
When a wife defrauds her husband sexually and habitually she is turning him over to Satan. In a very real sense she is excommunication him from the communion of covenant marriage. Instead of a church that loves her Lord she now typifies a church that is not all that keen on union with Christ. For a husband thus defrauded, counseling is just as likely to make things worse as most christian counselors are better versed at exegesis of Oprah than 1 Peter 3. If a man decides to keep his covenant while actively being defrauded he is imaging our suffering Savior even if he masturbate to bear the crushing pain of his beloveds rejection and contempt. It is too easy to join the chorus of male bashers and feminist discontent while glossing over the sins of Gomer against Hosea. Defrauding is sexual sin! Maybe more deleterious than even porn.
What about a husband who denies his wife?? I have encountered very little teaching about this, and it is an issue. What about husbands who prefer to masturbate over making love to a wife who yearns for it – a wife who has never said no??
Unfortunately, the vast majority of the world hasn’t accepted that occurs. I’m well aware it does. I wrote the post I want my husband to want me because of scenarios like that.
Exactly!! I have personally Bren through this myself. I have had my husband turn intimacy down. And it was because he had already masturbated an hour before!
Deposed you assume it’s always the woman refusing the man. This isn’t the case. It has nothing to do with Oprah and feminists and male bashing. If that were true, how do you explain the 25% of marriages where it is the man defrauding the woman? You are fooling yourself if you think refusal is worse than porn. I have spent my entire marriage – less than 48 hours after our wedding – being the refused spouse. We now average once a month. I wanted it daily when we first got married. I now only ask weekly because I can’t handle being rejected day after day after day. But the pain of my husband occasionally (and I mean maybe once or twice or month) looking at porn is far more painful than his daily rejection of sex. Viewing porn is far worse because it brings other people into our marriage, it involves the degrading of other women and it involves the sneaking around behind my back. Refusal hurts (a lot!) but it’s nowhere near as porn.
I mean I had a very high drive until 6 months ago (when I started on a libido killing medication and I still want it more more than my husband!), and after six years of abstinence (from the end of my first marriage to the beginning of my second marriage), to wait for that long only to find after the first 48 hours, to be totally rejected on our honeymoon and facing ongoing rejection for several years now, you can imagine my pain, but do I resort to masturbation? No. It’s just not the same. It doesn’t fill that ache for sex because it’s not sex! Not real sex anyway.
To butterfly wings, I too have the same scenario as you. My husband refuses to have sex with me on my terms he says its pressuring him if I want to have sex when I want it. I have to wait till he’s ready. Sometimes we go weeks without it because hes pleasing himself. I’ve caught him many times and he says there’s nothing wrong with it. I’m 45 and been married 4 years we both are healthy and in great shape. I told him either me or the marriage. But he still sneaks behind my back and does it late nights before he comes to bed when I’m waiting for him. I don’t know what to do.
My understanding of old Jewish law is that sex is the WOMAN’S right. Not the man’s.
1. sex every day IF the man was at home. This meant he was independently wealthy and did not work.
2. sex once a week if he were a laborer. This would translat into if the man received a paycheck from another person, NOT himself, then once a work.
3. Once a month if the man did ? (something else, sorry I don’t remember)
4. Once every six months if the man was a sailor.
Please don’t start that everyday needed ‘line’. It’s just not productive in a martial relationship. The two spouse or suppose to be in agreement. 1Cor7 does NOT elude to frequency in any way. The lesson in the verse is that you cannot seek sex outside the marriage. A sexual relationship belongs only to your spouse. And Paul said “if you burn, then marry”. He didn’t say “if you burn, then masturbate”. This was the place that Paul could have easily said that, but he didn’t. Sex in any form is meant ONLY for your spouse.
Hi Dan,
Sorry, I have to correct you a bit. Yes, sex was the woman’s right, but also the husbands. If a wife used sex as punishment, discipline, or withheld it, the husband was entitled to divorce without paying the settlement required by the marriage contract. Likewise, if the husband withheld sex, she was entitled to divorce him and receive the full settlement required by the marriage contract. As one passage of the Mishnah states: “A man’s wife is permitted to him. Therefore a man may do whatever he wishes with his wife. He may have intercourse with her at any time he wishes and kiss her on whatever limb of her body he wants.”
That said, a husband was not only required to provide sex to his wife, but to provider her satisfaction during sex. Some interpret this to mean orgasm. Their argument is that you cannot become “one flesh” without mutual satisfaction, and the only way to ensure that is through both parties orgasm. While the husband is nearly always assured of orgasm, they need to ensure the wife would be assured orgasm as well. If she did not orgasm regularly, she was allowed to take her husband to civic court for punishment, because while they were married and having sex, they were not “one flesh” and thus violating God’s commandment.
It seems fairly even handed on both sides to be honest. Very legalistic, but ultimately, I believe, with the intent of ensuring pleasurable and equitable relations between husband and wife. The rabbis were obviously very concerned with pleasure being a part of sex for both parties.
Also, you have a few of your facts incorrect based on my research:
1) Your translation is incorrect. Check the footnotes by other Rabbis on this. If the man was gainfully employed (did not have to look for work on a daily basis), once a day. This included Rabbis.
2) For day laborers who had to find new employment every day, twice a week
3) For ass-drivers (those who bring goods from the villages to the cities), once a week (because they would come home on weekends)
4) For camel-drivers (longer trade routes), once every 30 days
5) For sailors, once every 6 months
It is generally accepted that these time frames were not how often they had to have sex, but how often the husband needed to make himself available to have sex, should his wife desire (with the assumption being that her desire would out-match his). As well, he was to initiate often enough that she never was required to ask for sex.
There was also a provision that a student could leave to study the Torah without the permission of his wife (with regard to conjugal rights) for thirty days, but a laborer (one who had to go find new work) could only leave for a week without it being considered depriving his wife of her conjugal rights.
As well, the longest a married couple could mutually consent to abstaining from sex was a week (not counting the menstrual period).
Other than that, I agree.
Hi jay dee. I know this post is old but just wondering where you got that info from please?
Which part? That was gleaned from at least a half a dozen sources at the time, if I recall.
I know the divorcing due to a lack of sex is from the Talmud. I also quoted the Mishnah above. I believe those would be the two most likely sources, or commentaries thereof.
The part about the minimum requirement of sex that a husband must provide according to the type of work that he does.
“Every Person’s Guide to Jewish Sexuality” by Ronald H Isaacs – Page 50
But, it’s a commentary on Ketubot 5:6 (part of the Mishnah)
Furthermore, Ketubot 62b says that a husband cannot change his job without his wife’s consent if it will limit their sexual frequency more than his current job, even if it means a pay increase. The assumption is that the wife is more interested in sex than financial security.
What is your opinion of solo masturbation due to separation, like deployed military husbands? I ‘m not disagreeing. I’ve found that even masturbation that some Christians deem acceptable to be empty, wanting, selfish and dens of temptation.
Oh, here’s a question: if a spouse, I’ll say husband but it can be wife, too gets aroused by someone or something, say an unexpected sex scene or flash of nudity in a movie, is it ok to turn that arousal towards their spouse, or should they turn off (for lack of a better description) that arousal instead through prayer, cold shower, accounting, etc?
The way my husband and I avoid that is….well, to avoid it! We don’t watch movies, tv shows, commercials, ANYTHING, with sexual images. I don’t look at shirtless guys, and he doesn’t look at scantily-clad girls. If there is something that we can’t completely avoid, then we look away from whatever it is and start thinking instead about each other. It makes for a much happier sex life, because we don’t see images that we could accidentally compare each other to.
Great question about separated spouses. I’m sorry to make you wait, but I’m going to refrain from answering until I think and research more about it. My gut reaction is very harsh (and probably not what you think), and I think it might need some tempering from the Holy Spirit and the Bible.
And I’m going to do the same about redirecting lust, wait a bit, not because my initial reaction is harsh, but because I want to fill it out a bit more. I think I’m going to write a post about this this week. Stay tuned.
You bring up some very good points. Thank you! <3
You’re welcome
Jenny, that is great! And how I roll, but hubby isn’t so careful and I can’t help but wonder if him coming to me for sex is because something he saw aroused him, or if I am the cause of arousal.
Hm, yes, it’s difficult when your spouse doesn’t realize the importance of “be careful, little eyes, what you see.” I wrote an article about it earlier in my blog, called “Beauty and Self-Esteem,” that talks about how to handle it when your husband isn’t careful, or when you’re concerned about things like that. The main thing, I suppose, is to give your husband to God. Pray that God will change his heart and open his eyes, and that God will give your husband the will, desire, and the strength to look away and to immediately turn away lustful thoughts. As hard as it is to accept (or at least, it was difficult for me to accept), we can’t change them; but, God can, and it’s in His will for your husband to keep his eyes and his mind on you. What I came to realize is that even if I felt that I couldn’t trust my husband (which, in reality, I could – I have a good man), I can always trust God. So just give him to God. It always gives me a great peace of mind to pray that God will guard and protect my husband. I have an anxiety disorder so things that shouldn’t bother me sometimes do, and just putting it in God’s hands helps a lot.
Mostly agree with the comments in the article. However being a truck driver and away from home for a week to sometimes weeks its very hard to deal with that need as it is a basic need of a man. So I have to resort to taking matters into my own hands especially with a high sex drive. Have tried many times to not do so but it causes my mind to have thoughts that don’t belong in a marriage. I know of no other way to deal with the situation. Also to make matters worse my spouse has very little sex drive on top of what at best is a very hard situation. So I would have to add there are other reasons as to why masturbation occurs as there are many men and women in the same situation I am in. Military would also be an example that would make it very hard on a faithful spouse to not use masturbating to help them stay faithful being away from their spouse for an extended amount of time
As I said in an earlier reply, I’m going to refrain from answering this now as I think of a response. Please be patient and stay tuned.
I find your question realistic and as the wife of a truck driver could give you some inside idea of a woman perspective. First, look at your wife’s reasons for a low sex drive, because it is often the case for spouses of people in your profession to become used to forgetting about sex all together as a means to miss the husband less. This is a usual topic of conversation among wives of truck drivers, the ways in which each copes with semi permanent long distance relationships. For some, it is simply easier to forget all about sex and then when the guy comes home the intimacy level is so low that sex is simply not wanted. However, for others, it is the fact that their spouses are physically too different and usually gain a lot of weight from all the junk food in the road, and the attraction seriously goes down. Anyway, the point is to talk to her about why she feels unenthusiastic about sex and how can you help her get to a higher libido, you maybe surprised to see that if you show concern for her needs more than your own, she will open up much more(literaly).
Now, a solution to the masturbation problem could be phone sex with her, from discussed in this forum, the main issue with masturbation is that is solo, so, make your wife a part of your sex life while away by having creative phone sex where you both are engaged in the act at the same time and for mutual enjoyment, and it could become another source of intimacy between you two. Hope that helps.
Jenny, thank you for your openness. I am mostly sure that hubby does not harbor lustful thoughts about what he sees, hence my question. They may arouse him, but it seems he turns that sexual energy and thoughts towards me, but is it wrong for him to do that?
And, yes, I am praying for him. He believes that since he is not deliberately watching something to see nudity or sex and that he’s not “jacking off” to it or letting it linger in his mind that it is ok. To him it is ok to flip through a Maxim magazine if his intent is to read the article on motorcycles, and not stare at the models even though he looks and sees them as he flips through.
I look forward to it, Jay, because your post goes against what most other Christian marriage bloggers write….that it is ok to MB while separated if the spouses agree. They even suggest texting suggestive or nude photos, which my hubby wisely says no to.
I wonder if the whole MBing is a gray area and men need sexual release more often than some wives can give it is an excuse, a wool over the eyes pulling from the enemy. “Well, God made me short tempered, so it is ok to stomp around my garage screaming obscenities about my wife so long as she doesn’t hear. Then I am not hurting her and my anger is justified.” Is that example right? I don’t think so. We’d expect self control. “God made me a man with a high libido, so it is ok to hide in my man cave and MB so long as my wife doesn’t get hurt.”
I will be honest and say that in more extreme situations of separation, I think it is ok to MB with the spouse on the mind, but not as a regular habit. The best I’ve found is to pray first. Go ahead and ask God! He already knows you are thinking it, so go ahead and ask! See what He says about it.
I appreciate your writing about this difficult topic. But I think I have two additional reasons and (I would say) justifications for it:
I have a friend who is older, is diabetic, hypertensive, and depressive. For many years he and his wife had a good sex life (4-6 times a week) and apparently a good relationship. As he had to take more and more medications, he became anorgasmic but still could give his wife pleasure. (Apparently the anorgasmia is related to his antidepressants.) After two or three years of that, however, he developed ED. Catch-22: He can’t live without his meds, and he can’t have a normal married life with them. He still has strong libido, and he has learned to “fake it,” but that’s not very satisfactory. He pleases his wife by hand, but she’s unable to reciprocate. (Her hand/arm get tired, and sometimes he can’t maintain his erection.) She is supportive, encouraging, and understanding, but helpless. Sometimes he goes for up to six months without any release. He has asked me whether it’s right for him to masturbate from time to time. What do you think? I don’t believe this is one of your three reasons.
I also have a younger colleague (early 40s) at work who is married to a Refuser. In nearly 18 years of marriage, they have had sex 15 times in all. (After six years of celibacy, his church advised him that he would be justified in seeking an annulment. He didn’t do it.) He resists pornography. His wife will not go to counseling—She “doesn’t need it; he’s the one who’s oversexed” (!) He hasn’t asked me whether it’s all right for him to masturbate, but if he should, (1) I don’t think his situation fits any of your three reasons; it’s certainly not selfishness, and (2) I don’t know what else to advise him. It’s heart-breaking.
I respectfully disagree, I think my post still applies.
In the first scenario, I saw nothing in your post that would indicate your friend could not masturbate in the company of his wife with her encouraging him. That way they would be together, the focus would be on the marriage and shared sexuality.
In the second, I strongly disagree with the church that advised to get an annulment. To me, that’s just biblical and no church should ever suggest annulment or divorce. Moving on, marriage is a covenant, not a contract. Just because she is not living up to her end, doesn’t mean he doesn’t get to hold up his. In other words, just because the marriage is hurting, does not give him the right to hurt it more. So, if he understand it’s hurting the marriage, then he’s selfish or addicted. If he doesn’t, he’s ignorant. I stand by my three reasons. Just because she’s refusing does not give him the right to shrug his shoulders and give up on that aspect of their marriage. We don’t suggest that people who have spouses that leave the church never bring up the subject of spirituality again. And we wouldn’t encourage a spouse who has become emotionally distant just to give up and live like they had a business arrangement where they share resources, have sex, but don’t connect emotionally.
So, if we are always encouraging emotional and spiritual intimacy, telling people never to give up, always hope, work towards reconciliation, why, as soon as we’re talking about sexual intimacy do we go “Well, she’s out, so you’re off the hook”. I’m not saying it’s easy, but that doesn’t justify breaking your vows to be only for each other.
I wish there was a way to get some older, wiser, women in his church to go talk to that wife.
Unfortunately, I think the good intentions of the Christian marriage bloggers have kind of laid sex out to be TOO important….the pendulum is swinging too far the other way now. Marriage is cake. Sex is icing. You can have really good cake without the icing, or you can have cardboard cake with icing. You can have really good cake with really good icing. The scenarios go on and on. The fact is, a marriage CAN survive without icing, though most of us would agree that a cake isn’t complete without the icing.
One thing God showed me during a time of sexual famine in my marriage was that hubby and I needed to work on our cake, making it really good, yummy, delicious, etc and then HE would put the icing on when it cooled. Putting icing on cake that’s still a warm from the oven makes the icing run all over and nasty. The really nice thing about letting God do the icing is that He’ll incorporate the icing between the layers of the cake, too…AND He’ll decorate it!
Sometimes, I think we go through seasons where a new cake needs to be made in our marriage. Perhaps a big hurt or bit circumstance crumbled the original one and we need to start from scratch, adding the ingredients and baking a new cake. Pregnancy, loss, emotional hurts, pornography, affairs, financial difficulties, illnesses, stress – they can all crumble that marriage cake.
Oftentimes, the counseling I read about in Christian marriage circles is to get with the icing. Yes, sometimes icing can help hold together a crumbling cake. Other times, you’re just making a bigger mess. But, focusing so firmly on the sexual aspect of marriage can hinder where the problem really lays.
It’s different for every couple, hence why we need to go to God and not necessarily go to bed.
And running to the shower to masturbate just because the wife or husband has refused again isn’t going to solve anything. It is running to self, not to God. There may be times you are so pent up that you NEED release and can’t get it. I’m talking REALLY pent up, not just aroused. It’s ok to ask God if it is ok to release yourself, but obey Him and keep your mind on your spouse if you feel He says ok. I don’t advise it, but I’m not God and the Bible doesn’t say, “though shalt not masturbate,” so that’s why I say go to Him.
After that I’m honestly not sure if you’re saying I’m putting too much emphasis on sex or not…I mean, this blog is about sex within marriage…
That said, I think emotional, spiritual and sexual intimacy during marriage are equally important.
But I agree with your comment, sex without a good marriage is like icing on cardboard.
I agree with you so much, Livinginblurredlines. As I’ve mentioned before, my husband and I dealt with a lot of hurt that damaged our intimacy in all areas of our marriage. Something we actually did (his idea) was forgo sex for a short while, just take it off the table, until we re-established the emotional and spiritual intimacy, so that sex would be as intimate as possible. I think it really was necessary for us at that time. It seems that many men think that is too long to wait (I’ve read in various places where men think that a couple of DAYS is too long to wait), but something my husband says is, “I’m/You’re worth waiting for.” He’s not like most guys. He has never looked at sex as a way to simply “get his rocks off.” It really is an expression of love for both of us. So yes, sometimes it’s necessary to rebuild the foundation of your marriage before sex can really be what it’s supposed to be.
I will say, that rebuilding intimacy in the other parts of our marriage made us very hot for each other very quickly. 🙂 So it wasn’t long (about a week?) before we were making love!
You have inspired me. I think today I’m going to write a blog post about this.
A couple of days is not too long to wait, a week is not too long to wait, a month is not too long to wait if the couple agrees. Where we tend to see most of the problems is where one spouse takes sex off the table without discussion or mutual consent.
I completely agree with that. Withholding sex should never be an option. It’s a sin, and it’s so harmful and detrimental to a marriage. But, unfortunately, it happens a lot.
By the way, I’ve made comments against withholding sex for the past year on various marriage blogs. I was a victim of my spouse withholding, and I know how terrible it is.
Yes, unfortunately, this is one of those topics considered taboo to discuss, especially in Christian circles.
I disagree. I know that most men are built with a sex drive where they desire sex around once a day. I know that I am just like almost every guy in that, since I was first growing hair above my lip, I dreamed about having a vibrant sexual life with a woman someday. And I am normal in that it was one of the most important dreams to me. I believe God made us guys this way.
Paul tells us we should not withhold sex from each other as best we can. I think there are many things that are important to a good marriage and sex is one of them. I really feel the sex as the frosting analogy doesn’t fit, unless you want to say that many things are frosting. You could still be close to your wife if you are both in a nursing home and can’t go on dates, see your children/grandchildren, give each other gifts…etc… But outside a scenario like that those things would need to be there.
If you took a birthday cake to your bbf for her birthday and the icing accidently fell of you could still give it to her as a joke. But if you showed up with a cake and no icing because icing isn’t important then that wouldn’t be that great a birthday cake. There are certain reasons to go without sex in a marriage, but without any pressing reasons, it needs to be in there.
How can a wife be loving toward her husband when she is withholding the thing he has desired unlike anything else in his life?
“Marriage is the cake. Sex is the icing” I could not disagree more as a husband. That’s a great attitude if you are a husband towards your wife, as that’s how it is for most women. However, on the flip side it needs to be flipped if you are wife and your attitude towards your husband. Sorry, I got married to have sex with my wife…I’ll be completely honest. I love my wife more than anything. I’d die for her. I help with the kids, house, tell her she’s beautiful and of my love everyday and give her my everything everyday so don’t take that wrong ladies…but I got married to have sex. If your a wife and you have the attitude of livingblurredlines above…that’s it’s just the icing…well that’s the attitude my wife had for 13 years and amazingly we were miserable. The day she decided to fllip that, we are BOTH amazingly happy (and for those that are wondering I still loved her and did all those things before the attitude flip…so you can’t say only you needed to love her…longest lonliest most hurtful 13 years of my life)
I don’t want to argue, and after all it _is_ your blogsite. But I’m not easy with your response and would like to hear more of your thoughts:
I don’t understand. You wrote, “In other words, just because the marriage is hurting, does not give him the right to hurt it more. So, if he understand it’s hurting the marriage, then he’s selfish or addicted. If he doesn’t, he’s ignorant.” How does staying in a frigid relationship hurt it? If so, how is he selfish or addicted? If he wants sex within marriage, how is he ignorant? His wife, BTW, is perhaps the most self-centered and selfish individual I have ever encountered in the Christian community. My colleague works overtime to give her more income; has almost complege responsibility for child care (Yes, about 2 of those 15 times were when she reluctantly agreed to procreation.); he does a good bit of the cooking. I cannot accept the notion that he is selfish, addicted, or ignorant, at least without some further clarification about what you mean. livinginblurredlines wrote about cake and frosting; well, as far as I can see, despite my colleague’s best efforts, both his cake and his frosting are cardboard. It takes two to tango.
And in the first case, the older friend, he has tried masturbating while his wife watches, but she goes to pieces, saying it makes her feel so inadequate because she can’t meet all of his needs. Her womanhood is insulted. She won’t let him share that with her; it’s one of the few things they can’t discuss.
As I said, I don’t like to argue; I hope this is brotherly dialogue. I appreciate (and agree with) nearly everything you write here; don’t stop.
Argue, discuss, challenge, whatever, I’m OK with it. I would never get offended by someone taking up a different position than I, so fear not. And I won’t stop just because people don’t agree. I don’t expect everyone to agree with everything I say. I tend to be very black and white in my views, but to me, the Bible is very black and white as well.
Back to the topic. I’ll go with your now reversed order of friends. How to explain this better, because it’s apparent I’ve confused the issue somewhere.
My points are directly related to the harm I believe solo masturbation does to a marriage.
If he is aware of the harm and chooses to do it anyways, then he’s selfish or addicted. If he is not aware of the harm he is doing (which is most likely since it could be nearly eclipsed by the harm the wife is doing), then he is ignorant of the harm he is doing, by definition.
If this were my friend, I would buy him the book Boundaries In Marriage because it sounds like he needs to learn to set boundaries. If he’s doing all these things for her and there is no justification, I’m going to say, based on the limited evidence, that he’s enabling her to be this way. In which case, he needs to step up, be a man and lead his house. I am not saying this is easy. I’m saying it needs to be done to save the marriage.
In the case of the other friend, that is so sad. They need to talk about it. Saying they “can’t” is a cop-out. They need to understand that this has the potential to ruin their marriage, and that their marriage is worth fighting for. It’s going to be uncomfortable, but they need to get past that in order to grow.
But, I still stand by what I said. The fact that we are dealt a bad hand in life, or marriage, does not excuse us responsibility for our actions.
I hope that clears my opinion up. If not, feel free to ask a clarifying question. I love the discussion.
It definitely does not clear it up. I have never heard of a man who would rather masturbate than have sex with his wife. Men masturbate in marriage because their wives are disobedient to scripture and do not give him the sex that he needs but is selfish and self centered and only has sex when she wants to. This violates the principal of 1 Cor 7 and Proverbs 5 as well as Proverbs 31.
In the past few years writing this blog, I have come across many men who would rather masturbate than have sex with their wife. I know a few of my readers have husbands like this. As such, I completely disagree with the assumption that that’s the only reason men masturbate. In fact, according to one of our surveys, the men who masturbate are having sex more than 2 times a week on average. Doesn’t sound like they are starving for sex. And even if it was, that’s not the reason they are masturbating, that’s just a catalyst. I discuss the reasons in the post above.
As well, now you’re using another false doctrine to justify masturbation: that one persons sin can excuse another’s actions. This is not biblical in the least. You can’t justify masturbation because of a refusing wife, even if that was the case every time, which it’s not.
John if you haven’t heard of it, it is only because women who are refused are just told to submit and bullied into silence usually.
Oh, and here’s one such person.
My first husband masturbated to porn all of the time when I was ready and eager to have sex with him. I also caught him masturbating while on the toilet sucking his thumb….a result of sexual molestation by his father. You have never heard of a man who would rather masturbate than have sex with his wife for a reason. Your hard line attitude toward women and your piousness about why men masturbate is reason enough for most people to steer clear of any conversation with you regarding that subject. It is amazing to me that you would come on a forum like this where there are obviously many reasons given for why men masturbate and then say that they are all wrong…..it’s the woman’s fault. Sounds just like what Adam said to God after the fall and we all know how that went over.
Oh, and one more thing…cake without icing can become stale more quickly. So, yes, icing is important. 😉
I agree
No, Jay Dee, that isn’t what I meant. :). Telling a blogger who’s title is sex within marriage that they emphasize sex too much is kinda juvenile! Lol! I mean that OTHER Christian marriage blog sites I’ve been to seem to emphasize sex too much with the underlying assumption that sex fixes so much. I like that you don’t ignore the cake for the icing. I like that you are not advising, as i was advised through other sites, to withhold and masturbate until hubby gets it. I am shocked that i was never advised to go to God by ANY Christian marriage site. They ALL advised that I take care of myself until hubby comes around….no one advised using the famine to fast and pray instead. God showed me to do that.
Phew.
I would never suggest you hold out on sex because your husband isn’t “getting it”. Just as I would never suggest you hold out on talking to your spouse because they won’t have sex with you, or not go to church because they won’t do the dishes. Those are not solutions, those are childish “I’m not going to do this because he wont’ do that” arguments.
I will have to be more intentional about directing people to prayer and fasting. Thank you for the tip.
Jenny, a kindred spirit!! Glad to meet you! We were without sex for about a month, but it was 6 days of mutual consent to fast from sex. Hubby’s idea and hubby led the breaking of the fast, which is what God told me to allow to happen.
Jay Dee, I agree with you! Here is where I meant other bloggers focus too much on the sex part. Sex problems in marriage isn’t the disease. It is the symptom. Too many times, other marriage bloggers discuss or advise the symptom and never address the disease. Masturbating is often like eating a candy bar to take care of your diabetes. It is an unhealthy short term “fix” of the symptom rather than taking the effort to cure the disease! People justify it because it helps them through the day and keeps them from getting too sick, just like masturbating gets them through the lack of sex and keeps them from entering sins like porn. If you want real change and healing in a marriage, you often have to forsake the quick fix, go to the Great Physician (God) and do what He tells you.
I bought into the lie that it is ok to masturbate when separated from your spouse, but it has done more harm than good. Again, that is my take on it and since it isn’t clearly forbidden in the Bible, so hence why I say to ask God.
Very well thought out, thanks. (And I say that even though I don’t fully agree with you.)
To answer your top question, married men masturbate for only three reasons (or some combination of the three):
1) He is selfish
2) She is selfish
3) Absence or serious illness
If a husband OR wife masturbates regularly, I think something is wrong. What and how to deal with it varies.
As to right or wrong, I find it impossible to explain how God could have “missed” this sin if, in fact, it were sin. I mean He told us not to have sex with those of the same gender, and not to have sex with animals. He gave us a very detailed list of who was a relative and therefore not to have sex with. All this, and He fails to mention the most common, and for most people first sex act? I just don’t buy it.
Of course anything can be done sinfully. If you think of some movie star while having sex with your spouse, then you are in sin, but that does not make sex with your spouse sin. Additionally just because some can do something and not sin does not mean all can do that thing and not sin. If you believe that drinking is not sin, but drunkenness is, then you realise some can’t stop and one drink, and thus for them any drinking is sin, or leads to sin. I have no doubt some can not masturbate without falling into the sin of lust, but that does not make masturbation in and of it self sin. Paul talked about those who could not eat meat as it was, for them sin, so the concept is biblically valid.
Some have said that masturbation kept them from sin when they were single, or when they are apart from their spouse. This seems obvious to me – if you can masturbate without sin, you have reduced your temptation to lust when you see the things our society throws at us 27/7. God promises us a way of escape from every sin – what is masturbation is the escape from lust?
Just a few of my thoughts …
Thank you for the compliment, and I accept that you disagree. That said:
A counter argument: I would argue that “masturbation is sin” has been a part of Jewish and the Talmud for thousands of years. Paul would have been writing with this mindset. Perhaps that’s why it wasn’t specifically answered in the Bible, because it was obvious to the culture of the day. It would make more sense if there was something in the Bible to counter it or say it was OK.
Not going to get started on the topic of alcohol here, it will detract from the point of this post.
As for people saying masturbation has kept them from sin, that’s hardly an argument. People have said cheating has kept them from killing their wives. That doesn’t make cheating OK. Just means they took the more socially acceptable sin.
Respectfully,
JD
JayDee – Yes, the rabies of old called it sin – but then they called a great deal sin that God never called sin. Adding to the Word of God was a habit with them, and Jesus called them rude things for it. One a few occasions Jesus corrected them, but there are plenty of places they added their rules in God’s name where Jesus did not correct them, so the silence is hardly proof.
Besides, the rules against homosexuality and bestiality go back further, and again, no mention of masturbation. The rabies added it because God said nothing about it and they thought He needed their help to get it all right. (I’m only half kidding).
I agree we don’t need to go down the road on drinking. My point is that just because something is wrong for one person to do does not make it wrong for everyone.
As to Paul, I have often thought his argument in Colossians 2:20-23 is a great answer to the many rules we have added to what is and is not allowed sexually. These rules seem wise to those who are religious, but they have no power to prevent indulgences of the flesh.
Thanks for an intelligent discussion of this issue!
This article really opened my eyes to why someone shouldn’t masturbate in marriage. I hadn’t thought about it much but had wondered about it.
However, I don’t understand why the fact that the guy is sexually unsatisfied is not even mentioned. I am a single guy so I may be totally ignorant. I guess I assumed that guys, when they got married, would go after their wives for their sexual needs. And if he went to masturbation, it was because his wife was rejecting him. This rejection might be for understandable reasons, like he was being a jerk. But I have also heard it is because she often would not realize how much he needs her sexually.
Maybe I am also naive as someone who doesn’t view porn, and who doesn’t masturbate as much as other guys. However, from what I have heard, most wives would not want to keep up with my even sex drive. If I ever marry and find myself living with someone who I am sexually attracted to and she wants to have sex less than what I was even used to before I was in close contact with a woman, then it will be hard not to masturbate. As I said above, this article really helped me understand why I shouldn’t.
But it’s kinda like talking about why a husband eats so many snacks when you won’t talk about how the wive won’t let him eat supper until eight o clock some nights. I guess articles like this support my phobia that if you want to be sexually satisfied, don’t get married. I don’t mean that as a jab because this article was an eye opener about some good things. But it’s an honest fear.
Hi Will, thanks for joining the discussion. The reason I didn’t address the wife not fulfilling her role is because it wasn’t the subject of this post. Wives should not get married if they are unwilling to keep up with their husband. This should be discussed at pre-marriage counselling, and mothers should be telling their daughters this as soon as they start courting seriously (and I think all courting should be serious). Is that blunt enough? If/when you find a potential wife, this is one of the topics you should discuss. Along with theology, finances, kids, jobs, roles in marriage, etc..
Yes, marriage takes work, yes every marriage has it’s issues. Why get married? Because it can be the most amazing connection in the world. There is no comparison. I don’t even know how to adequately describe it in words. In my opinion, it is worth the risk, and we have had some fairly substantial trials (though not as bad as others).
Jay Dee would you say the same thing to men – that if they are unwilling to keep up with their wives, they shouldn’t get married? and that fathers should be telling this to their sons?
As for discussing this with your future spouse, I do think that’s a good idea but it doesn’t always help. My husband and I discussed sex in great detail. The only thing we didn’t say was “I want it X number of times a week”, and I think unless you’re experienced, it’s not something you can pinpoint. I thought my husband would be as interested as me because 1. most guys want it daily and 2. because he always wanted to hug and kiss every day we were together (although keep in mind we had a long distance engagement so we were spending two weeks together every 3 months so that may contributed to his horniness when we actually were able to spend time together). With my husband’s interest in things like kissing, I just assumed he’d be as passionate about sex. It wasn’t until our disastrous honeymoon did I realise he has very little interest at all.
I think it’s great to discuss sex, but unless a person is experienced, I really and truly don’t think you can be sure of your sex drive until you actually start having it. This is no excuse for pre-marital sex however. What it does mean is that if you get married and discover your drives don’t match, it will take a bit of work from both sides.
But yeah…. do you think husbands should not get married if they are unwilling to keep up with their wives?
Yes, I think that should be explained to anyone getting married, and not just about sex. If you are not willing to work towards being self-less in your marriage, then why bother? You will have completely missed the point, and missed how good marriage can be.
Now, I don’t think anyone goes into marriage being that way, and I doubt many, if any, fully reach that potential, but I think both spouses need to be working towards that goal.
Will you might be surprised to find out some guys (not a majority by any means, but a fair sized minority) prefer masturbation to sex. I’ve heard the two main reasons (and usually together) are that the guys know what they like best and therefore find it more physically enjoyable than sex and because they only have to worry about what they want instead of having to worry about their wife’s desires.
Having talked to a lot of very frustrated women who love their sex (because I have sought out support), for those whose husbands excessively masturbate, 99% of the time one or both of those excuses are what their husbands claim – more often the first reason, but I’d say the second is more common than they admit to – it’s just easier to claim masturbation is more enjoyable than sex than to actual admit they want it to be out their desires and not to have to meet their wives.
Nope, not surprised at all, I think that’s covered in #2: selfishness. They don’t care about their spouses involvement/pleasure. They’re just in it for themselves.
The only point of masturbation (alone, not mutual) is to release base sexual urges. What is Biblically edifying in that? A sin? Not directly, I think. Watching a slasher movie isn’t necessarily a sin, but is it pleasing to God? My thought is that you should pray first before MBing. Also, consider, if Christ walked into the room, would He be happy with what you are doing?
Now, I’m sorry livinginblurredlines, I’m going to have to argue against you for a second here (I’m not switching positions though). There is more to solo masturbation than just releasing base sexual urges. Men get an oxytocin burst when masturbating which can make them feel loved. So, if they are in a situation where they are not feeling loved by their spouse, this can be a replacement. And that is part of my main contention, that they are replacing love from their spouse with a psuedo-love with no one. There are some studies that also suggest that men who masturbate have trouble forming real oxytocin bonds with real partners and so have trouble emotionally connecting.
I see two issues in this discussion, one, selfishness from either him or her, husband is too lazy to sit down and talk with wife about his needs, or wife is too lazy to learn how to give a good hand job or blow job that the husband can enjoy without any pressure of having to pleasure you first.
Second issue, assuming that most men want sex everyday, oh, what some wives would give for that to be true!!! A lot of wives basically pleasure themselves or go without and live miserable and angry because their husbands are too tired to spend time in quality sex or simply feel perfectly find with two to three times a week, what would you advice to those women when talking is no longer an option? And sometimes it isn’t, would you tell them to go living without the rest of their lives because their spouse is too selfish to give more? People, you need to stop assuming that only men masturbate, a lot of women can only reach orgasm by it.
As I said in another comment (and this post), not every man wants sex every day. I’d say in about 1/3 – 1/4 of marriages, the wife has the higher drive. In about 1/10 marriages, I’d say the husband has such a low drive that he is refusing sex regularly.
But, even if the roles are reversed, the answer still applies, I think. Daily is a desire, not a need. You don’t NEED to orgasm. Your marriage NEEDS a healthy sexual component. Solo masturbation further separates you, instead of bonding you. Thus, yes, I’d suggest they go without orgasm and focus on resolving the issues in the marriage, which I know, is very difficult…but not impossible.
I really believe JD made a very clear answer as to whether masturbation is ok in a Christian marriage. Matthew 5: 28 makes it very clear ,and rather shocking news to any of us that thinks it isn’t a problem. As a girl in my teens I masturbated daily,and multiple times daily,college being no different,and while doing so,I had sex “in my mind” with several different men. Not until I became a Christian and married did I find that lust is an outright sin. It was the most difficult challenge overcoming it I have ever encountered in my life,and don’t get me wrong,I see nothing wrong with a woman masturbating in front of her husband or vice versa,but what about when your spouse is not around . While in the act of masturbating alone,am I thinking about my husband while doing so,..,or the “20 something” stud that delivered pizza to the house last night? Matthew 5: 28….no need to look any farther as to whether it is a sin or not.
Judy
Judy – It seems to me masturbating while thinking of your spouse would be well within what the Bible allows. If someone can’t do that and keep their mind on their spouse, I think that shows a much bigger problem that needs to be addressed.
Thanks Paul,and I agree with you 100%! Believe me,it was the most difficult habit to break ,no different than a alcoholic trying to quit drinking. I enjoyed masturbating ,….as a high school student and single college girl, I had the best of both worlds,I could have sex with my partner,then when he wasn’t available,..I would masturbate ,and masturbate,..lusting over any man I so desired ! I’m so thankful I found the most wonderful Christian man when I did,and that he seen enough good in me to marry me,and with the help of the Lord,I overcame my bad habits as a single girl,and have a wonderful Christian marriage today.
If your masturbating alone but could be with him or her that is not healthy and fulfilling.
Will, as a woman, we would hope you desired US more than anything rather than the sex itself. Sex should come out of your desire for your wife rather than your wife being your outlet for sexual release. I want my husband to want sex with me because he desires me. I don’t want him to have sex with me because he simply wants to ejaculated in a woman and I happen to be the lawful one to do it in.
We also want to feel safe and trust that our husbands will meet our needs and will wait with self control should a small amount of waiting be needed. You know how rotten it feels to find hubby sexing up the pillow just because the baby woke up before the two of you could get started or because her period begun that day?
livingblurredlines, I hope I am not coming across as saying that a guy should only view his wife as a sexual release.
You mentioned that,”We also want to feel safe and trust that our husbands will meet our needs.”
If a woman is not feeling safe she is not feeling loved. It doesn’t mean she desires that safety more than she desires her husband. I was trying to make the point that in the same way, a guy who is having to struggle with sexual frustration may very well not feel loved. It doesn’t mean he only looks at his wife as his sexual release.
JD, I would think there are many women who don’t get that instruction and may need it now as a married woman. I may be naive to how women really are. Throughout my life, I have been around several women who have really complained about, what seems to be the natural sex drive and desires in men.
Yes, I’d agree that there are many women who don’t get that instruction. I’d even argue most women. But I think many men don’t receive proper instruction on how to love their wives as well. Particularly because we men are generally not terribly good at talking to our kids about intimacy of any kind.
Will, thank you for clarifying.
Jay Dee….I totally don’t get why women are so deceived. That’s it. Just like the serpent deceived Eve, women are deceived now. We are also the victims of being lied to about our worth and beauty on a daily basis, even by our husbands. Simple things like double-checking the cute jogger, not turning away from the Victoria’s Secret commercial, and not taking the time to woo us anymore really helps destroy us women.
We are also deceived and fed lies by the church, the media, hollywood, cosmo, locker room chats, etc about sex, love and intimacy. It’s sickening. Thank God for women like Sheila and others who stand up and help wives and husband reclaim the marriage bed!
I’m in an opposite dynamic and pray that my husband gets it since he is a refuser and doesn’t seem to enjoy sex as God intended and I’m often left on the side mostly dominated by frustrated husbands.
I’m afraid deception is the devil’s largest tool. Always has been. Especially in our churches. He has spent so much time subverting Christian theology, mixing in paganism and wrong teachings. He is constantly trying to tell us God doesn’t love us and nothing God said was true, and we listen! We have entire denominations built on false doctrine that is not biblical, we have entire theologies built on pagan mysticism.
The vision of the harlot (corrupted church) with all the daughters (split denominations) in the book of Revelation has come true. God is still calling his people out of Babylon, because we are still all enslaved though most Christians no longer even realize it.
Sorry, I got a little carried away there, but I am passionate about this topic.
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. – Ephesians 6:12
We are deceived every day on every side by nearly every message we see and hear. What we have to remember is that we are not fighting our spouses. We are fighting FOR our spouses. Our war is not against flesh and blood, but against those things that attempt to control that flesh and blood.
livinginblurredlines, if it helps, you are not alone. While we share much in common with frustrated husbands, I think the refused wives go through many things refused husbands do not, especially in a society that assumes men all want sex and women don’t.
But even in the last year of looking, I have seen more and more women come out and say this is a problem in their marriages, both in blogs and personally. Women are finally opening up more about this issue in their sex lives.
I agree, it has, sadly, become almost acceptable for a wife to refuse a husband, but the other way, there is such a stigma, almost a sense of crime against society which bring with it more undue pressure and guilt which doesn’t help the situation at all.
I too see many more women speaking out about this pain in their lives, and while it’s sad that it’s so frequent, I’m glad they are finding their voice.
What about husbands who masturbate not because they lack the frequency of sex, but because there isn’t a sense of fulfillment or a sense of being known and accepted during sex. I speak specifically of the sexual intimacy that should occur outside of intercourse (there IS more to sexual intimacy than intercourse, right?).
My heart aches for husbands (and wives) who go through the sexual motions, and having finished the “deed,” roll over and sigh a very heavy sigh because, even though they have “finished” with an orgasm, they are not sexually fulfilled. Many of them still feel the need to masturbate because of this unfulfillment. Sad.
OK, OK, I’ll write a post about women needing to meet the needs of their spouse! I get it! Any of the women notice how many men brought this topic up? Apparently they’re feeling a little unheard. But, then, from the comments, it seems I’m preaching to the choir here.
Been there, done that, but MBing doesn’t fulfill anything! It may take the edge off, but there’s no fulfillment. Again, I agree with Jay Dee and reiterate what I said. It is a band aid on a broken bone. If we put all that pent up sexual energy towards lifting our spouse, marriage, marriage bed and even ourselves up to the Lord, imagine how much more blessed marriages would be!!
Most of our wives her not always there for their husbands expectially pastors wife, they always advantage of their fear of God. Pls do manage this. That is why some of us masturbate
Hi! I wrote an article about emotional and spiritual intimacy, how affects sexual intimacy, and what you can to to get it back once you’ve lost it! “Emotional and Spiritual Intimacy: What to do when you’ve lost that loving feeling”: http://forhehasbeengoodtome.blogspot.com/2012/10/emotional-and-spiritual-intimacy-what.html
Also, I mentioned playing together in that article, and I JUST posted a list of hilarious and fun games to play with your spouse.
I begin to think that if this trend of men preferring porn to making love to their wives continues to escalate, we will not have to worry about overpopulation. Might have to worry about underpopulation.
To be fair to the men, in many cases, the reasons they are watching porn is because the wives don’t want to be made love to. So, one could also say that :
I being to think that if this trend of women making themselves unavailable to their men continues to escalate, we will not have to worry about overpopulation. Might have to worry about underpopulation.
However, I think both statements are hyperbole. I think the underlying issues regarding population growth rates go far beyond this topic.
I read a lot of testimonies about porn use and healing. In almost all of them, the wife was a willing and eager and frequent partner and it was usually the husband who started refusing because Mbing through porn was easier. I read testimonies of women who gave their husbands MORE sex when they discovered his porn use and it stopped nothing. I read testimonies about husbands who turned to adultery and were getting sexed up constantly and in a new, exciting dynamic, but still looked at porn.
Yes, refusal can cause the temptation to look at porn. Hubby’s refusal of me opened the door for porn and MBing addiction for me as a woman. I would look up picture and videos of what I was dying for hubby to do to me. I’d MB to them and hurt so deeply, feeling so guilty because I was at a loss that I could not get my needs met by hubby and turned to deep sin. When hubby started looking at porn, it broke my addiction. When I caught hubby MBing, it broke my addiction. He looked and MBed because it was easier than dealing with having to take the time to make love to me. He had the misinformation through Hollywood and porn that women are supposed to come quickly and that sex is more for the man. When we did have sex, I was only his sperm dump – a breathing blow up doll.
So, I understand the hurt so many men go through. The rejection. I understand the temptation, but MBing resolved NOTHING and left me more broken, more wanting and did even MORE damage to our marriage and our sex life. I do NOT advocate it. I advocate putting every ounce of pent up sexual energy into praying for your spouse, marriage bed, marriage and yourself! Let God work, instead and see what healing He brings. He’s healing hubby and I! God also showed me that even though I thought I was a model wife, the kind every husband begs to have, I had issues that affected hubby deeply and our overall intimacy. Hubby had issues, too, including trying to start an emotional affair with our teenage baby sitter. Not for sexual reason, but for ego boosting reasons. So many hidden things were lacking.
As I said before, sexual issues in marriage are a symptom, not the disease. You have to cure the disease to be rid of the symptom. MBing is like putting a band aid on a broken bone, eating a candy bar to try to cure diabetes. MBing masks the real issue.
Stop focusing on the MBing, the refusal, what have you, and focus on your MARRIAGE instead. Go to God about that first. Hence why I said work on making a really good cake before God puts the icing on. I get it, men. I KNOW sex is important and a way for you to connect deeply emotionally, but don’t let it become an idol!
Agreed. Like I said, preaching to the choir here in a lot of cases. I hated that feeling of masturbating and then feeling the guilt afterwards that sudden drop from ecstasy to debasement is so painful. Thank you for sharing.
In marriages as a whole there is less sex than men want, so I don’t buy that most men who turned to porn has a willing an eager wife. She may have thought she was, by her definition, but that does not make it true for his reality. I’m in no way excusing porn, just trying to give a clear picture.
Beyond that, it’s virtually unheard of for a man to come into marriage without porn exposure, and usually significant exposure. This is sad reality of our times.
Yes, some women try to solve hubby’s porn use with more sex (which rarely works) but it’s more common for her to cut back or stop having sex completely. I get why they do that, but it would be like telling your kids you will make them dinner after they go a week without getting a candy bar on the way home from school!
I agree with you that we can get too focused on sex, and that we need to keep our eyes on the marriage, but the Bible does talk about sex, and does condemn refusal, so it’s not a non-issue.
Paul, it depends on your definition of an “eager wife”. I wanted sex once or twice a day, and on days when I wasn’t working 16 hour days (sadly between university and my three jobs, during our first two years of marriage, I often worked 16 hour days), I was more than happy to do it the up to six times a day he was physically capable of doing. And yes, this is despite me suffering from a condition called fibromyalgia which involves constant fatigue and pain. Not to mention numerous other health conditions. There were occasional days when I was sick and in too much pain, but unless I’d had surgery within the previous week or two, this was extremely rare.
Yet you know what? it wasn’t enough for my husband. There were only two times in our marriage where I refused him – the day after I had major surgery where he raped when I said I honestly couldn’t do it, and for several weeks after our daughter was born 9 months later because her delivery was really bad, she nearly died, I could have died, there were massive complications, 12 years later I still suffer from severe pain from the butchering I went through with medical negligence. Doctors orders were that sex was forbidden for at least six weeks til my six week checkup, and even then I went back to it at 6 weeks because I could not wait any longer, and even before then I was meeting my husband’s sexual needs in other ways.
But it was never enough for him. Not having an adoring wife willing to have sex up to six times a day (and to give you an indicator of what a big thing that was, he had orgasm difficulties and it could take up to two hours for him, and I lost track of how painful it got doing that day in and day out, even with artificial lubrication, 2+ hours every day can be a big ask on that part of a woman’s anatomy).
Because it wasn’t about having an eager wife. He never took his christianity seriously and never had a problem with porn. He saw it as a perfectly acceptable thing to do be involved in while married. Having an eager wife changed nothing, even when our marriage was strong. He could have a whole harem of eager women (as he pretty much had in the end) and he’d still look at porn.
Sadly where there is an addiction involved, the presence of an eager wife is totally irrelevant.
And it wasn’t just porn for women. He had (still has) massive self esteem issues. He obsessively (literally insanely) needs to feel loved by everyone he meets. He is a compulsive liar, telling the most stupid lies, even ones he constantly gets caught out in, because he’ll say and do anything to make people like him. He is a chameleon who will do anything (even criminal and stupid behaviours) to make people like him. And because of his desperate desire to feel loved and wanted, he thinks he has to make every woman he meets sleep with him.
When we separated, he knew I adored him. We had fantastic sex the night before we separated, but after he savagedly bashed our five year old daughter the next morning, I kicked him out before he killed her or me (he had tried to kill me in the past). But when we separated, he also had three long term mistresses who acted like they adored him. One separated from her husband to be with him, another was one of my “best friends” who was willing to screw over a very long time best friend to be with him, the third I only know through what the first told me. And those were only the mistresses I knew about. He apparently had lots more as well as all his casual flings. When we separated (which btw was only supposed to be temporary until he could get a rehab place and get help for his mental illness, drug use and violent psychotic rages), he had four women who worshipped and adored him.
And you know what? that still wasn’t enough for him. He wanted more. I knew two of his other mistresses, and he literally could turn up on their doorsteps any time of the day or night, and they would sleep with him. After I discovered his affairs with them, I even found out how he’d go from one straight to the other, and then still not be satiated and go out looking for casual sex.
For some men, having multiple women who adore them and will have sex any time, is STILL not enough and they seek out more women for sex.
Sadly for some men, it’s just not about getting enough sex with their wife. They have serious underlying issues and their wife could have sex with them 50 times a day and they’d still want sex elsewhere – because it’s about the thrill of getting it outside of their marriage.
While I’m sure you’re right that MOST men with a porn problem don’t have an eager wife, the reality is a big minority DO have an eager wife – but these guys have serious issues with either addiction or clinical depression/other mental illness (or both) and an eager wife is simply not enough.
There is so much here, I don’t even know how to begin to unpack it. I think we can probably agree that your situation is pretty outside the norm.
The problem with having a blog that seeks to help people is that most often, you have to write for a wide audience, in the hopes that you can reach as many people as possible. We do all settle into our niches (for example, mine is specifically sex within Christian marriages), and there are some, like J’s HotHolyHumorous.com which specifically target women, and issues surrounding that particular audience, but the fact is, we’re not going to be able to address every possible scenario, instance or circumstance. We have neither the life experience, nor the training to do so.
So, instead we try to draw on principles we believe are fundamental, regardless of circumstance, and when we can’t, we correlate data from the majority and base on that, and in those cases, we can miss some marriages, it’s true. It can’t be helped. The best we can do is to try and remind people that your marriage is probably going to have a twist we can’t foresee, so, please read with appropriate adjustments.
That said, I agree, it is not always the case that a husband addicted to porn has a refusing spouse. Sometimes they don’t. Sometimes it’s the wife that’s addicted to porn, and then sometimes it’s the husband that’s the refuser, and sometimes there is no refuser and both are addicted to porn. I think what was trying to be said is that MANY marriage could be porn free if both spouses lived for each other instead of themselves with respect to sexuality. But, that’s a big, deep topic right there.
Just in case it wasn’t clear, that was with my EX husband. Total opposite problem with my second husband. My first husband demanded a divorce to marry one of his mistresses, and then before the divorce could legally go through, he decided to dump her and marry one of the other women he had cheated on me with.
Yes, I understood.
Ex-Husband – Sex Addict
Current Husband – Sex Refuser
Of course, that’s an oversimplification.
Wow
I’ll agree with the 4th reason comment. Disobedience to 1cor7:5 is the same as disobedience to any other command. Except maybe that the church isn’t teaching it today.
I agree with you on the disobedience part, but I disagree that it is a core reason. It’s just a catalyst, not the actual reason it happens.
I agree with Cassandra but this was very helpful
“That means when you are unmarried, you are not expending sexual energy. By doing so, you are cheating on your future spouse.”
Having two sons 18 and 16 I think this borders on loading people down with burdens they cannot carry. You admit that you didn’t carry the burden.
I don’t regret having this discussion with my sons. Masturbation is private and scripture does not mention it at all. Lust is a sin. Don’t do it!
I much prefer we teach our kids truth instead of trying to protect them from mistakes that we think we made. I corrected the mistake by being truthful with my sons so that they can better steward their sexuality.
Phew, I am glad I am not an expert in the law.
I understand what you’re saying. We shouldn’t expect our sons not to lie, cheat, steal, ignore God, or anything else that we haven’t been able to do perfectly ourselves. Sorry, that was mean. I meant to illustrate a point. That if we only teach our sons (and daughters) what we did perfectly, we would never teach them anything.
And I never said I’m not willing to help people. I’m spending all this time commenting and replying and posting in order to help people. I sincerely hope it is helping, and from a lot of the comments and email, it is helping a lot of marriages.
And I agree, the Bible doesn’t explicitly say anything about masturbation, I was quite clear on that myself. No argument here. I still stand by what I said. The Bible doesn’t say anything about using drugs explicitly, but I’m against them. The Bible doesn’t say anything about a lot of things I’m against and that I will teach my children is wrong, because I believe it to be so based on the principles found in the Bible, my extrapolation of a loving God and what I believe His intent is for our lives.
Thank you for commenting I always enjoy Bible verses!
Re: Confused and want to find the truth
Postby KyWildcat » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:30 am
Here’s the thing, masturbation is as universal an activity as there is on earth. Scripture goes into great detail about sexual matters going so far as to prohibit sex with animals (Lev. 18). Scripture does not mention the almost universal act of masturbation at all. God knows what He is doing. It seems to me that if masturbation was an important thing to God He would have mentioned it.
Now, something to think about, there is an old joke that goes, 95% of men admit to masturbating and the other 5% have been known to lie. The joke is funny because of the nugget of truth in it. People, particularly males, are going to masturbate. It’s a fact.
I think we need to use our senses, reason, and intellect to find honest Biblical answers to these issues.
So, I can’t believe it’s wrong, because the Bible doesn’t explicitly state it, but you can believe it’s good, because the Bible doesn’t explicitly state it?
If we’re going to go that route, then understand that Paul (being a Pharisaic Jew) would have grown up believing masturbation to be a sin (as orthodox Jews still believe). His silence on the topic, to me, based on the culture, leaves the onus on proving that it is OK, instead of proving that it is sin. Since the Bible is silent (as you said), the default is to go with what the author of all those letters would have believed and would have been teaching, no? Does better safe than sorry apply here?
Paul had a checkered past, sexual one. Listening to him as a Christian telling me to stop doesn’t make sense. “Hey, I masturbated, it felt good, was fun, and now I don’t want you too do it” yah, don’t make sense.
This topic is huge in reply!s, masturbation is been around since first man if it was such an issue the Bible would have addressed it.
For example; man masturbates, (high 90’s statistically speaking) It’s safe to say man masturbated in biblical time too, look at Pompeii bath houses, it was prevalent. Yet moses was tasked to chose “thou shall not kill” above masturbation on the “big 10 list “ we’re supposed to believe it wasn’t even worth a mention? Killing was farless done than masturbation by ten fold or more! It was so frequently done they decided to “imply” that we shouldn’t masturbate ? That’s why people don’t buy the biblical spin on reading into what’s not there.. if it was worth addressing it would have been. Yah, some who live in fear and self label themselves into shame will jump on the taboo wagon but if you want to live free just see through the fog of doubt enjoy God’s gift of self pleasure.
As we started out, 90% plus men masturbate if its SO bad then Heaven would be empty. It’s not, it’s full of masturbating humans. (Spirits)
I’m curious where you get this idea from.
As for the rest, the 10 commandments aren’t a detailed list, and it’s only exhaustive in the sense that “love God” encompasses all sins. Nevertheless, I would put masturbation under the adultery one – it’s failing in sexual fidelity in a similar manner to gatekeeping sex in marriage.
And heaven is empty. Read your bible. Jesus is preparing a place for us (John 14:3), it doesn’t exist yet. It won’t under He destroys heaven and earth and remakes them (Rev 21:1). Also, there is no such thing as an immortal soul until Jesus returns (1 Corinthians 15:53-54), and we’re going to live on the new earth, not in the heavens (Revelation 21:10-27).
Study does wonders, study the bible is good, interpretation is good but not always correct which is why I sug a little deeper in who this masturbating sexuality active Jewish man was. If you want to know more I say read more about his past, he’s not pure as snow. It’s safe to say, after researching, that I’m correct. I personally enjoy some of the parables the bible offers but through research, study, understanding it’s easier to understand the human dynamic. On average 80% of church goers masturbate. Berating our brains out with conjecture of biblical passages to get a answer doesn’t make it true.
Noone is saying Paul was pure as snow – I mean, he was hunting down Christians, imprisoning and killing them. But there’s nothing in the Bible to suggest what you are suggesting.
Its called study outside just the bible and Jewish “religious “ lens. There’s enough out there to question his perspective and what he says about sex. But I doubt you want to go in that direction because then it’ll counter your groupthink and what you’ve decided you’re going to believe.
Well, let’s see it.
Was thinking about your thought there,
adultery
noun
adul·tery ə-ˈdəl-t(ə-)rē
plural adulteries
: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than that person’s current spouse or partner
also : an act of adultery
Call condition is masturbation close to adultery, read the definition. You can group think it to your definition but it’s not the truth. This is where we get in trouble and people get confused. Opinions and interpretations used to manipulate truth creates chaos and that’s why we have this thread that looks like it has a lot of comments.
Interesting choice, going to an English dictionary to figure out what a Hebrew word originally meant. I decided to check, my Hebrew lexicon. The original Hebrew word is simply “heated passion” which, yes, generally gets translated into adultery, but I think given the principles of the Bible, it’s not a stretch at all to believe that all “heated passion” outside of the bounds of a committed relationship with a partner is contrary to God’s intent, and thus are prohibited.
If we’re going to go by the original Hebrew definition of adultery then married men masturbating definitely isn’t adultery since it doesn’t involve someone having sex with another man’s wife. As I demonstrated before, the ancient definition of adultery was: a man (married or unmarried) having sex with another man’s wife.
Yeah, we disagree on that. The only way you can support that idea is if you define the word by only using cases where scenarios are explicitly called out in scripture.
It isn’t a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. You are simply objectively wrong. Every scholarly resource I’ve read about how the ancient world defined adultery agrees that ancient people defined it that way. The idea that married women were entitled to fidelity from their husbands is much later idea. The earliest to suggest that idea were some Roman writers. The idea is definitely older than the Ancient Near East culture that the Old Testament was written in, and it was also foreign to the culture of Second Temple Judaism.
I don’t think you can objectively claim I’m wrong unless you have a first-hand account stating it in black and white.
What you suggest, though, goes against what I see as clear biblical principles.
I can understand how you came to that conclusion – you seem to believe that God is fallible and open to oversight based on our previous conversations. If one does not believe that God is omnipotent, unchanging and perfect, then of course, you could believe that He defined sexual immorality one way in the Old Testament and differently in the New Testament.
However, I believe God is infallible, unchanging, and perfect, which I’d argue is a biblical stance. As such, the definition cannot change.
So, as I said, we disagree, owing to our radically different perspectives on God.
I arrived at that conclusion based on studying scholarly works on sexual mores in Ancient Near East culture, as well as Greco-Roman culture and Second Temple Jewish culture. Polygamy was still quite common in 1st century Judaism and in that culture there was no notion of women being able to expect sexual exclusivity from their husband. The modern definition of adultery was a later development. Adultery referred only to a man having sex with another man’s wife. The man’s marital status was not taken into account in that definition. A married man taking another wife or sleeping with a slave or prostitute was, in that culture, not committing adultery.
For what it’s worth, you’re also misrepresenting my view of God and the Bible. The Bible was written for an Ancient Near Eastern audience (in the case of the OT) and an audience steeped in Greco-Roman culture and Second Temple Jewish culture (in the case of the NT). Those were very different cultures and you have to read the texts the same way the original audience read them in order to understand their meaning. You cant read modern definitions of things like adultery back into the text. The meaning has shifted quite a bit over time and in the process of linguistic translation.
Ironically you’re the one using modern culture’s values and ignoring the original text, at least when it comes to the definition of adultery.
I’m not arguing about how humans acted. I’m arguing for God’s intent and what is sinful. You’re looking into ancient near east culture only shows what sinful humans did – not what God intended.
I’m looking into Ancient Near East culture to understand the context of the texts and how the original audience would have read them. You seem to believe that the Biblical texts were written in a vacuum instead of being produced in a specific culture at a specific time.
The main points of our disagreement (on everything, really) is that I believe the collection of texts which we call the Bible was written in a specific cultural context, had a specific original audience, that the original audience read the texts in a certain way, that a text with a finite number of words does not and cannot address the nearly infinite array of circumstances that can arise, that books can’t make decisions, that no norm is applicable to chaos, and that after understanding the original context of the Bible we have to discern how to apply it to our current culture, and we have to make a judgement call on which principles carry more weight when there is tension between one or more of them.
Paul wrote that in, the 1st century AD, as a Roman citizen in the Roman era about the scripture he was reading from the 15th century BCE in a different country, context, technological period, language, everything. He thought Moses, writing to tribes of nomads who knew nothing except slave life, escaping Egypt and heading into a desert for 40 years was applicable to the daily life of a Pharisee-trained Rabbi who grew up in Jerusalem and preached about Christ – who he had personally met. That’s quite a radical context change.
And I believe it’s still applicable today as well as Paul’s writings, regardless of our circumstance.
Way wrong to use “Heated passion” no one masturbates in a heat of passion? It feels nice but it’s not heated? Married couples have heated passion together for sure. Even though the guy masturbated a day or two prior. Again, in the “bounds” of only enjoying sex through religion you will probably will be skewed to think shame. Expanded view supports masturbation.
I think I’m confused by your question marks. Yeah, I think masturbation occurs in the heat of passion.
heated passion? wrong use of english language. That’s like saying every meal you eat is with heated passion, not all meals derive that level of emotional response. A five star four course meal verses a street taco two different meals giving substance to the body. Biblical use, Jewish use or your interpretation don’t align. “Heated passion” Making love to ones wife and masturbation fulfill the needs of mind and body but heatedly in passion they aren’t the same. One can eat a five course meal and afterwards eat a taco and not receive the same emotional connection. Now there may be a few people whom are “foodies”, as they say in culinary circles who could get “heated” over the smallest morsel of food but they would be an outlier. There opinions of food don’t make it the rule for everyone who eats. Same for your spin, your foodie views of masturbation don’t make every session “heated passion” and therefore doesn’t fall under Adultery. There’s the rub. Foodie views of biblical readings create confusion for people who eat, enjoy food, don’t understand the extremes craziness foodie views implied to normal meals. Group think is good for group thinkers, those trying to find any reason to believe masturbation is bad, who need something to hang onto, but for the whole not so much. But you’re free to group think and grow new members but that for sure isn’t the norm, it’s group think, which can, not always, but can, lead to misinformation. Funny to think this thread on Twitter might be band for misinformation but because Elon bought Twitter the thread is allowed to stand,
Masturbation doesn’t fulfill the needs of the mind or body. You will not die if you don’t orgasm.
Sex fulfills the needs of the relationship. With masturbation, there is no relationship to sustain. I would argue you’re damaging your relationship (current or future) by engaging in it.
I don’t know why you keep saying “groupthink” – I didn’t get this idea from a group. The only groupthink I come across is yours – yours is what the church taught me growing up; it’s the “groupthink” prevalent in society and churches. You’re on the wrong side to be fighting against “groupthink.”
Yup, 95% men masturbated both now and in Jesus time. Most of if not all biblical characters masturbated. It’s logical. Don’t know why people keep racking there brains to stop it. Masturbation can be done well in a good marriage as well a troubled one.
Sin is 100% universal, both now and in Jesus’ time. It didn’t stop them or us from trying to stop it doing it. Why? Because it’s not good and it’s harmful. The pervasiveness of sin isn’t proof that it’s good.
Yah, masturbation is not sin, physically it could be detailled just not here, to much to cover but there lies the problem, one is free to decide for self as is all spiritual thought. A man who masturbates and a man who doesn’t will enter heaven. One will have a less God given pleasure while on earth.
“What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? Certainly not! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer?” – Romans 6:1-2
The “well, grace will cover everything, so we might as well sin as much as possible” is a terrible argument.
Not true 100%, nothing is 100% except maybe death. Birth isn’t even 100% your correct in this bundle of group think but not in the real world we share,
You don’t believe all people sin? Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8.
Of course you can believe, teach and do anything you want.
While you’re doing that consider this: What your suggesting is what the church has been selling for decades (centuries?). You list the stats in your post about how well this is working out for Christian men. It just seems to me that perhaps it’s time to have a more honest discussion with young adults about the subject of masturbation.
I think your post is well thought out and good. I’m more aligned with Paul Byerly in regards to the reasons married men masturbate, I think it boils down to selfishness (which was also one of your reasons).
I just don’t see much value in reasoning our way to something that scripture just doesn’t say at all.
No, the church has not been selling what I’m saying. The church has been hiding and sweeping under the rug for centuries. They discourage talk about sexuality, they discourage joy in sexuality. That is what is causing this behavior, not their teaching about right and wrong, but their teaching about bad communication and not teaching about transparency.
The early church used to have small groups to get together and confess sins to each other. Who does this anymore? The Catholic church has people confessing to a priest, but not for the same reasons, and he’s not confessing back in the interest of transparency. And they are the closest to this behavior that I can find as a denominational standard.
If anything, I am saying the opposite of what the church has been selling: I could not be more open about my experiences, my believes and my thoughts about sexuality. I am doing my best to be transparent, to encourage dialogue. When we can talk about this stuff without shame, without worry of retribution from spouses and being ostracized by our peers, then we can learn to grow, to help each other and we would see those stats falling like rocks, because our marriages would be better. We’d be dealing with our issues with the help of a massive support group instead of sweeping it under the rug and pretending we all have perfect “Christian” marriages that still end in divorce far too often.
If I wanted to be more like the churches have been in the past millennium, all I would have to do is delete all the comments and write a single line: “Masturbation will send you to hell!” (which I don’t believe by-the-way).
As for the reasoning. I think if we reasoned a little more AND read our Bible more, we wouldn’t be following churches and theologies blindly into the mess we’re in. But, that’s just my opinion.
And if you ever want a discussion on things just about every church preaches that you not only can’t find in the Bible, but are in direct opposition to the Bible, send me an email. I’d love to hear your thoughts, because you seem be be quite stuck on this “it’s not in the Bible” track and you seem like a thinker, but it’s outside of the scope of this site.
I appreciate that. We disagree on one thing. Keep up the good work.
Blessings!
It is not only men who masturbate. Married women do too. There is nothing more lonely or desolate in all the world as a women when you have to masturbate yourself while your husband is snoring next to you because he doesn’t desire you 🙁
Of course, you are correct. Much, if not all, of this post could be applied to both genders. And yes, that is a horrible place to be in when your spouse will not return your affection in that regard. I plan to be posting something in the near future regarding refusing spouses.
Thank you for this post. After reading it, something told me I needed to discuss it with my husband. I found out that my husband has been masturbating. He says it has only been when it has been awhile since we were able to have sex. (Like when I have really bad periods lasting like 7 days) On average my husband and I have sex 2 sometimes 3 times a week. I actually thought we were getting closer sexually and the “quality” of sex was much better. So when I asked him, I made sure I was very graceful, understanding, and not judgemental. He says that he always felt very ashamed after. I’m so conflicted now and I don’t know what to do or say. I made sure to make love to my husband after our conversation to show him that I still love him, but I feel so hurt. I have asked him in the past and apparently he lied. He says he does not use porn, but how do I know this is true? How do I know if he is addicted or its just because we didn’t have sex enough? Can a man not make it without sex 7-10 days every once and a while? I realize he was not cheating on me with someone else, but I still feel very hurt by this . How do I move past this? Is this just something women have to learn to deal with?
Hey Chrissy, I spent a lot of time writing and thinking about your comment, and eventually, it got so big that it turned into it’s own post. You can read it here. I hope it helps.
Thank you for being willing to share this information! I hope it is okay that I printed out your post and will share it with my pastor. I am in a marriage in crisis and am not sure if my husband has resorted to his previous lifestyle or not. Appreciate any and all prayers.
You’re welcome! Of course, feel free to print, pin, share, like, +1, tweet, whatever you wish. In fact, I encourage it. I write these posts in the hopes it will help people.
You are not alone. Be strong, continue to pray, and I will pray for you both as well, and please let me know how it goes (feel free to email if you don’t want it public).
hi….I need your help with over coming how I. feel about my husband jerk off…I know its natural but I get so up set about it to the point of crying. he said it has nothing to do with me. I’m scare to eave him alone cause of this witch I thing is going to cause us to split up. I’m also have trust issue do to this. I fry’s to hide it from me an lie about but I always findout, please help me with ways to feel ok about him doing this thanks Casey
I don’t think I can help you feel better about him doing it. If you read above, I’m quite against the practice. It’s obviously upset you, so obviously you are involved, and I think your husband needs to understand that. Try to have open conversations about how it makes you feel, don’t attack, but help him to understand what it is doing to your marriage.
This has been an issue within my marriage. My husband could not have a conversation without touching himself. It has gotten better but he still feels the need to touch himself. I need to escalate my prayers in this area. Thank you for the reminder.
Blessings~
Alethea
Yeah, we start that when we’re children, and some of us never get out of the habit. It’s hard to break. Keep at it.
Often masturbate the day after sex. My husband feels pressured if I want it 2 days in a row so I leave him out of the equation as a courtesy. As a woman I can orgasm to no limit (I guess, I know wht my past limit was and one isn’t going to put me over the edge). My husband doesn’t always have the time or desire to accommodate me and I never refuse him so I think it’s ok. Sometimes I tell him, but sometimes I don’t because I don’t want him to feel inadequate.
I would like to say that if you do not masturbate you may increase your attraction and magnetism to your husband and help him heal. Sex with orgasm is a release of energy and if you store that energy you will be much more attractive and magnetic to your husband. Masturbation regardless of its rightness or wrongness is a bad investment. I know i used to do it so please try going without any orgasm even with him for at least two weeks and you may be shocked and what happens. Try gentle slow loving sex not fast and hard and you will both heal him from his aversion and erectile issues and you from addiction to dopimine. Try it it will be very hard but intimacy will go through the roof and you will be satisfied and at peace.. For us instead of two to three orgasm a week we are now at two a month perhaps and sex twice a day with lots of (maybe 30 minutes a day) breast time which is key. What you want is oxytocin flowing not a shot of addictive dopimine that feels good for 30 seconds then makes hunger for more and get depressed if you cannot do it..
This sounds like eastern mysticism to me (the idea that orgasm releases energy). I’ve gone 2 weeks without orgasm before, and frankly I found absolutely nothing productive about it what-so-ever, in fact I saw a huge decrease in energy, a decrease in mood and feeling very disconnected from my wife. So, for me, at least, this would not work at all. But, I know for me, an orgasm a day with my wife keeps me feeling incredibly bound to her. While an orgasm without my wife has no positive effects, again, only negative ones.
I have no experience with adult nursing relationships, so I can’t really comment on that.
I also think that the key in masterbating within a marriage is about keeping and increasing the oneness within that marriage.
Masterbation, even when not shared or together-to me-should still be a thing that is shared verbally and lovingly.
I would want my wife to know if I am doing this, and I would want to know if she is doing this-not out of a desire to control, but out of a desire to be one in our information with each other, in our knowing of each other.
What sex is really designed for is connection that yields life (not always new life at all, per se, but always life and shared life). This is beyond clear by our designs and our emotions.
So when it comes to going solo, alone… just make sure there is at least some life in it-something shared.
But ultimately, if two people are both in a relationship with a loving, gracious God as well, then I do think the goal should always be to connect, even if one partner has a lower labido.
It’s all about connection and oneness, so even though it’s not a perfect world, and sometimes, we have to go solo, the important thing is clearly connection, vulnerability, and surrender to each other, as best, as honestly, and as lovingly as we can embody these ideas.
You hear the exact same arguments for open marriages. “So long as there is communication, no one is hurt”. Of course, I disagree with that in both situations.
And I disagree with a lower libido needs to detract from your sex life. It just means one partner isn’t interested in initiating as often. Doesn’t mean they are unable to have more often. My wife considers herself to have a very low libido…doesn’t slow us down.
It is not a bad investment to take care of oneself when there is no other option… let’s not make this into a dogmatic issue where we begin shaming each other for practices that we don’t ourselves condone.
Again, I think we should encourage communication and vulnerability in all relationships, but you mean to tell me that, if this is attempted many times, and one partner is not opening up to this communication, that it’s a sin to help relieve yourself?
Like anything, masterbarion can become a crutch, and that is a danger. However, our telling people what they shouldn’t do instead of encouraging and empowering each other to embrace our sexuality and also strive to increase vulnerability and communication within marriage is just plain fruitless and legalistic.
Let’s be very careful not to shame each other here… there is far enough of that already in religion.
I don’t think it’s legalistic to believe in a principle: that all sexual expression should be done with your spouse, and your spouse alone.
Just like the principle that all worship should be done with God and God alone. Is that legalistic as well?
I dint realize this was such an emotional topic! I just read these comments. I’ll even suggest my husband join me in the shower while I masturbate. He doesn’t seem interested. So I’m just not allowed to? I have to just wait around for him? He’s a lot older than me. Things change as men age.
Yeah, I was a bit surprised by the responses as well.
I’m sorry he’s not interested. I think ideally, a partner should be interested just because you are. I mean, if my wife was doing anything that made her feel as good as sex does, I would want to be a part of it, even if only to watch, but then perhaps that’s just the high-drive mentality. Yes, things will probably change, my drive will probably slow down, but I doubt my desire to see my wife’s face in ecstasy will ever diminish.
Now, as for “allowed”. I think allowed is often used too strongly. Are you allowed to? Paul argues that though some may say everything is lawful, not everything is beneficial.
I believe sex is to be an emotional, bonding experience, and to have that experience without my spouse…well, it just seems wrong to me. And I see statements like that over and over again. It feels wrong, it feels dirty, it feels tainted, it feels empty. So many different descriptions, but I think a lot of them are pointing to this one truth: sex was designed to be shared! (with your spouse).
Now, do you just have to wait? No! Tell your husband what you need. I mean, if you said “I need you for a half hour to help me clean something up”, he’d be willing to, right? What if you said “I need you for a half hour to help me experience sex the way it was intended: shared. You don’t need to do anything, just be with me.” Do you think that might work?
hmph, if my husband doesn’t feel like it, it doesn’t matter if it’s cleaning or sex, he won’t do it no matter how much I say I need it. I’m more likely to get help cleaning up because he sees it as less of a chore and something that needs doing rather than sex which he sees as something that I don’t need him to do.
If that is the case, then I think there are probably some more fundamental issues in your marriage that need to be fixed before sex is addressed.
I have yet to come across a marriage where both spouses say “sex is great, but the rest of the marriage is falling apart”.
Point is, I think you both need to work on the rest of the marriage. Sex will come, but to focus on it, I think may be dealing with the symptom instead of the cause.
Nup after much counselling from a christian counsellor, a big huge chunk of our marriage issues are purely sexual. All of our fights have either been directly or indirectly due to his constant refusal. He won’t deal with it because the counsellor (wrongly) told him it’s normal (= healthy) for couples to have sex once a week or less and he has ignored I’m actually more qualified on the topic than our counsellor is and her stats were just plain incorrect, and definitely not applicable to couples in their first year of marriage anyway.
Our marriage isn’t perfect, we both have things that annoy each other, but the only major ongoing issue is the sex problem and the things that flow on from that, like how I feel depressed a lot of them because he doesn’t desire me and he has issues with temper explosions when he feels pressured to have sex (even when it was a simply request with no pressure at all).
So sadly I think sex is a major cause of our problems, not a symptom. The frustrating thing? when we do have sex, it IS great and he enjoys it. But he just constantly refuses to and is happy when he knows I’m not going to ask that day for whatever reason.
It’s not an issue that has suddenly arisen. This has been an issue since our honeymoon where he constantly refused.
I do believe there is more to it – but medically, not to do with the marriage. In my professional opinion (which he deliberately ignores) he has all the symptoms of low testosterone but refuses to get tested and claims I’ve insulted his manhood by saying I think his T levels are low because he thinks that it somehow makes him less of a man. I am a health professional – I know the signs, I know when someone needs to get tested and I’ve reassured him that testosterone levels isn’t what makes a man.
We have been seeing a counsellor, but she ignores the sex issue and when a counsellor ignores the major festering issue and deals with minor unimportant ones, nothing changes. for us, his constant refusal is a major festering issue that I constantly struggle to cope with.
I’d argue that even if he has low-T, I’d guarantee that’s effecting other aspects of your marriage. You’ve said before that he has trouble making decisions, that he never takes your needs into account (not only with sex), he’s not providing by taking car of bills on time and so you’re short on funds. This does not sound like a marriage where the only issue is sexual, I’m sorry. I’m not trying to say you have a bad marriage, just pointing out the inconsistencies in your responses.
I think there is more work here to be done besides sex, and even besides low-T, for both of you.
I frankly, it sounds like you need a new counselor. If he refuses to see another one, there is no reason you cannot be seeing a different one personally and work through your own issues.
You’re right – it’s just the sex issue that really hurts me. I’m not the world’s most decisive person and I’m not surprised by his struggle to understand some of my needs – I was his first girlfriend and he does have aspergers. He’s made heaps of progress in getting to know my needs in every way except sexually. It’s like a stumbling block that hasn’t improved much.
I actually am looking for a counsellor, to try and deal with the depression I feel from feeling unwanted but it’s a struggle. We live in probably the smallest city in the country (still a city but more like a town) and the cheapest counsellor/psychologist I’ve found is $120 after assistance from the government and my daughter (who also has aspergers) needs therapy more than I need counselling. So when we can pull together the money, she has first shot with a therapist.
I think I’m just super frustrated from being at the lowest point in frequency of sex since we got married except when we were separated for a little over a month due to hubby’s work. Maybe I’ll feel a bit better if I’m allowed off bed rest and can start having sex again.
He has Asperger’s! That explains everything! Did I miss that before? Ok, that’s going to change basically everything I responded to you with. Throw out the bulk of normal marriage advice out the window, you are playing a different game.
I highly suggest both of you reading the book The Complete Guide to Asperger’s Syndrome, and both of you need to be prepared to change some fundamental expectations, how you communicate, and how you coexist.
That one word pulled all your comments into focus, I see it in every paragraph now, sorry I didn’t recognize it before.
Being married to someone with a different brain makeup like Asperger’s can have its challenges, but it can be very rewarding as well.
A man not wanting sex is kind of repulsive. I’m pretty good looking, and I don’t really have the desire to pressure anyone into sex acts. The whole thing makes the man seem effeminate.
It IS a high drive mentality. I don’t really want my husband masturbating without me because I don’t want to miss out on the fun. I’m sparing him the time he’d waste watching me.
Well i mastrubate a lot some weeks more that 4 times a day but every day I make advances on my wife try to warm her up to it but get rejected. Marriage to bible thumping women sucks I’m an atheist and personally I feel if your man is mastrubating then there is something you are not doing. Some times I prefer jerking it off instead of sex with my wife, she just lays there like a fat heavy pillow. I am not proud of it but what can I do. Porn is just the sex life I wish I had (used to have) before I got tied down.
Hi Rico,
That’s a difficult place to be in.
I have one suggestion, which may seem radical in your situation.
What do you think your wife would say if you said you wanted to do a Bible study on sex in the bible?
If she’s a “Bible thumper” as you say, she’s going to be hard-pressed to find a biblical basis for sexual rejection.
Alternatively, you could suggest both of you reading a book on the topic, one by a Christian author. I’m not trying to convert you here, merely make it an easier pill for your wife to swallow.
If you wish resources, ask, and I will try to provide something suitable.
Jay Dee I just had a question on the topic of masturbation. I haven’t read all the comments yet as I thought I’d ask before I forget but don’t think anyone else has raised the issue.
When a couple has sex and one of them orgasms and then stops participating, leaving the other very horny, desperately needing release, do you think it’s a sin to “finish yourself off” if your spouse has got you to the point of very horny but after reaching orgasm themself, refuses to spend even just a few minutes to give you the same?
I realise the spouse who has the attitude “I’ve got my orgasm, I’ve got what I want so I’m not going to participate anymore” is doing the wrong thing, but is it so wrong for the spouse that is so close to finish themselves off when their spouse flat out refuses? It’s not their fault their spouse got them all hot for it and then refuses to finish things off.
I’ll stand by what I believe: I think regardless of the cause/circumstance, your spouse should be involved and to do otherwise is having a sexual relationship apart from your spouse.
One sin does not cover up another one, both break relationships. So, if your husband is not satisfying you (breaking the relationship), how are you going to repair it by masturbating alone (breaking it further)?
It’s a little like saying “The house burned down, so I’m going to fix it by burning down the garage.” Eventually, what you’re left with is an empty lot.
I also think going off and masturbating is enabling the other spouse. They could then feel justified in their behavior thinking “It’s OK, she’s taking care of herself.”
And just so you don’t think I’m answering this from within a protected bubble. I did this for a long time. During the early years of our marriage, my wife had a lot of pain during sex, so for months, perhaps longer (I didn’t keep track), I would bring her to orgasm manually or orally, but sex was out of the question. Then she would say “sorry”, and go to sleep. (mutual masturbation was not in our repertoire yet). So I’d leave and “finish myself off”. And yeah, it broke the relationship further, instead of working on our issues, we let them sit like that for a long time.
I’m not saying it’s hard, and I’m not saying I would have done any better. I’m saying what I did was wrong, and I wish I could go back and fix it, and so I’m advising others to.
I’m not exactly advocating finishing yourself off. I found it even more painful that my husband couldn’t spend less than five minutes (usually only 1-2 minutes at most) finishing things for me.
I tried over and over to explain to him how it leaves me feeling. For days after, it leaves me with literally shattered nerves. Everything makes me jumpy, everything is hard to cope with, I cry all the time (not in front of him or my daughter though), I want to scream at people, I feel red raw emotionally until we are finally able to have sex and reach orgasm.
It doesn’t happen a lot – I’d day 50% of the time I feel no need to orgasm , it is simply the sex I crave (I understand if as a man, you can’t understand this as guys are biologically built to need to orgasm every time) so I stop when he finishes, and 45% I orgasm first or at the same time. But the other 5%? he finishes first and doesn’t continue.
I’ve explained over and over the profound physical and emotional toll this takes on me, especially when we often then don’t have sex for usually a week as he’s had his fill and doesn’t want it any sooner, so I live with shattered nerves, constantly on edge for up to week. And I know I finally made a little progress in that last week he finally kept participating after he was finished because I really needed it (we’d only had sex once in three weeks because I had a severe UTI and thrush and a third down there issue) and begged him to continue, but he acted like it was the world’s most horrible chore, like he’d rather be scrubbing toilets than taking that few minutes to be intimate with me.
And what makes it worse is that every time something comes up that prevents us from having sex, he gets all excited. I’m pregnant and had wanted to have sex today after being rejected all day yesterday over and over, and after discovering I had some bleeding and a trip to the doctor and being put on bed rest (stuck in my bed with my laptop now), he makes it sounds like it’s fantastic as he’s found another excuse to get out of sex.
It’s incredibly hard for me, because 1. I have to battle my own feelings – I WANT SEX! I feel fine except some abdominal pain, but I know waiting a day or two for sex isn’t worth losing my precious baby over but 2. why does he have to be so happy he doesn’t have to have sex?
I know he’s not trying to act happy or be cruel or callous or anything, but it really hurts.
But back to the question I asked, yeah, I don’t finish myself off anymore (tried a few times when we first got married) but only because doing so makes me feel even more hurt and unwanted. But I don’t see that it’s doing anything wrong. Especially if you’re lying right next to your spouse, with the offer there to participate the whole time, and they are the ones choosing to ignore the offer. But then again, I personally still don’t see anything wrong with masturbation under certain circumstances within marriage (such as long times away from your spouse and as long as you only think of your spouse and that it’s to build up your marriage not take away from it). I don’t masturbate because I don’t find it enjoyable – it’s like the difference between playing a tennis match against an opponent and just hitting a ball against the wall by yourself – it’s just not a real game of tennis if you do it yourself – sex is a two player sport and it just seems silly playing it by yourself. But I don’t see that it is wrong for those who do under strict conditions.
And just a side note, if my husband masturbated and told me and said he only thought of me? It would do wonders (positive) for our marriage. Our biggest sex problem is I don’t feel at all desired by him. He rarely initiates (only 3 times in our entire nearly year long marriage and I’m sure one of those was deliberately because I wasn’t in a position to actually do it, and he knew I’d be forced to say no, so it was only to make me feel like he was initiating it with no actual intention of going through with it – if I had said yes, he’d have “changed his mind”) and he never compliments my body, he doesn’t want to see me naked (looks away any time we’re not in the middle of having sex), he makes excuses to make sex impossible, etc.
If he turned around and said to me, he masturbated and thought of me and that the thought of me turned him on that much, I’d be over the moon happy. It would prevent a lot of the issues that have been a flow on from his rejection of me physically. As much as I want sex, I wanted to be wanted sexually even more than the act itself. But currently he constantly rejects both.
I know I’m a big girl, but he swears it wouldn’t matter if I was a super model, it wouldn’t change his attraction levels. And it’s not like I haven’t tried to lose weight. I had lost 18kg since we met before I fell pregnant. And that is actually quite a miracle with all the crazy medical conditions I have and medications I take that have massive weight gain as side effects. Plus not supposed to be doing most of the exercise I do. Although it does have it’s plus sides – I’ve already gained 10kg from being pregnant and he hasn’t noticed at all and I’ve accepted that since I had to stop the medication I was taking to treat one of the medical conditions that causes my weight gain, due it not being safe in pregnancy, I’m going to probably gain a lot more, especially now with this stupid bed rest (so no exercise) and can’t be as tough with dieting for baby’s sake.
But it’s hard when I get random people who tell me I’m hot (I don’t believe it, and think they are being inappropriate to say so since most of them know I’m married), but my husband isn’t attracted. I know he’s not gay as one “friend” suggested, but I do think he’s mostly asexual and that it’s due to testosterone deficiency but he of course considers that suggestion an insult to his manhood and refuses to get tested.
Pretty depressed now about how happy he was about me not being allowed to have sex for a few days at least.
Not much to say that I haven’t addressed before. About the fact that you would be happy if he masturbated thinking about you. I think that’s a product of your circumstance.
To use hyperbole: It’s a little like police being relieved and happy that they caught a known serial killer to find out that this time he only kidnapped them. Does it make it right? No! Good? No! But, in light of how bad it could be, it can make them happy.
I’ve been on the receiving end of refusal, it’s not fun, and it’s not pretty, and it can mess with your mind, and sadly, you can’t make him change, it’s something he’s going to have to do on his own. The best you can do is model good behaviour, pray and don’t enable him by telling him it’s OK, but on the other hand, don’t beat him down by telling him he’s bad. It’s a difficult place to be.
absolute, complete rubbish–founded in zero scripture. Sometimes I think 99% of Christians have never even read Song of Solomon. No, it is not a sin to manually achieve orgasm on your own. Jay, let me remind you that achieving orgasm together is rare and difficult. You are basically saying that if your partner can’t get you to orgasm–you don’t get to have one. Since most men on the planet have very little problem in that area, the woman is supposed to suffer? Or worse, not learn what makes her cum in privacy? God is that cruel? Of course not. My wife and I have great sex, and we often orgasm together. Sometimes, though we are out of sync. She can’t get there and there is some mental block and she will tell me to finish. Then, while I rest, she will get out a vibrator and using it’s high power stimulus–reach climax. What could possibly be wrong with that? Why would I ever want to deny her that? There is nothing in your “beliefs” that is grounded in scripture. It’s just you giving very unprofessional advice to real people with real problems.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. You should check out my post If masturbation is sinful, what do you do if you don’t orgasm during sex?. Thanks for bringing that up.
As for Song of Solomon, I have read it, in great depth, it’s a wonderful book. However, I don’t believe it touches on the subject of solo masturbation. Correct me if I’m wrong.
I came across your article bcs I am looking for help. It happend three days ago when one morning I discovered on my you tube history two videos of girls in bikini. I was so shocked as I knew it was not me and no body shares our computer. Our kids are all toddlers so I knew it was my husband. We have been married for 6 years and have three kids. I always thought that my husband was not doing things like this. My whole world crashed in front of my eyes and being two moths postpartum of my third baby…I could not stop comparing myself to this women online and seeing all my imperfections. When he came home, I told him about it and he broke in tears saying that he has been struggling with it since a long time, way before we got married. While he does not watch porn, he does look sometimes at tv channels with sexual scenes when he travels on business trips and also this is followed by MB. He said that he prays not to fall into that sin but every time he travels, he falls…Please believe in what a shock I am…He was the only man I ever met and married. I tried my best to always be good looking, trying hard to always loose post partum weight and be a good-looking wife to him. I noticed that during my whole last pregnancy he did not want to make love to me. He had a mental block somehow, and those months also he was traveling a lot…I don’t know what to do now. He said that he is so happy that the sin is exposed now so we can pray together and help him over come this sin. I suffered a lot this past days, I said I forgave him, but deep inside me I am so hurt. Let me tell you that my background where I grew, coming from a muslim culture before I got saved, was so pure, so the my husband is the first men I ever dated. I knew nothing about their struggles and their issues. This world was so new to me…after 6 years of living in this mirage of a marriage I thought was healthy, since we both enjoyed sex and never stayed more than a week. So are all the men like this or is only my husband…Did I married someone who has issues, or just a christian men who struggles with this problem as any other. Please help me understand…I never had thoughts of suicidal before and I am having them now as I feel betrayed and robbed. What should I do to help him, help myself and our marriage survive this problem? I’ve lost respect of him while he is a wonderful husband to me and a wonderful dad to my kids. What tells me he will not cheat on me? I am devastated…
Ok, first things first: You are post-partum, and everything is going to seem much worse than it is in reality. If you are having suicidal thoughts, you need to talk to a professional, pastor, counselor, doctor, helpline, anything. Please.
I understand this is a big shock. The thing to remember is that this has been going on for a while. It coming out is a good thing. It may seem devastating, but this is actually improvement, and growth always hurts. You marriage has not been invalidated by it, nor does it mean your husband is not the man you thought he was. Just means there is an aspect of himself, which he wants to fix, that you weren’t aware of. Don’t think of this as you against him, but rather the both of you, and God, against this sin. That’s how you beat this thing and actually get a better marriage out of the deal.
Let’s calm down and focus on the good for a moment:
1) He could have lied, made up an excuse, whatever. He didn’t, he came right out and said he was guilty. Good for him. That takes courage. That’s something to respect. It means he’s not burying it, he wants to change.
2) He wants you to help him. That’s fantastic, and how it should be. Spouses should be able to rely on each other for support. Too many spouses try to face something like this and separate themselves until they have it fixed (consequently many of them never manage to do it on their own). That he wants to partner with you is a really good sign.
3) He’s a wonderful dad, it sounds like your marriage is pretty healthy. You are in a good place to tackle this together. So many people get this type of news after years of hurt, resentment and bitterness, without knowing why their marriage is broken, only knowing that it is. You’re leaps ahead in this regard.
Now, when he goes away, he needs a strategy for not being tempted. An accountability partner in the church would be a good idea, someone he can call when he’s having problems. I think he should also call you whenever he’s feeling tempted. There is nothing wrong/sinful about being tempted. It’s when one gives in that it’s a problem. Help him not to give in. Remind him of what he has at home waiting for him, and the how good the relationship that he’s damaging by this behavior really is. If/when he struggles/falls again, it is imperative that you don’t come down hard on him, yell at him, spiral into depression. This is only going to feed his guilt (which he already has, believe me), and going to push him away from you. That’s the last thing you want. You need to be supportive and caring and have the attitude God does when we sin. It’s basically the same attitude you have when your toddler falls and gets upset while their learning to walk. “It’s ok, we’ll try again, I’m proud of you for taking that step. We’ll do this together.”
There’s also going to be some work on your side to forgive him. That’s going to be hard. We are all sinful, we all do wrong, and while the impact of those sins aren’t equal, God says all sin is the same. You’re also going to have to learn to trust him. Jumping to the conclusion that he might have an affair because he’s looking at women in bikini’s shows a serious trust issue. I’m sure you didn’t think your husband was perfect before this came out, and he’s still not. He’s a sinner, same as you, same as me, we all need forgiveness, from God and from our spouses.
So, step back a second. Take a breath, calm down. God tell us that he will forgive our sins if we repent and ask. He also tells us to forgive others. Statistically, your husband is “normal” in this regard. Half of men have a history with porn. He is no more evil, sinful, fallen and broken than the rest of us. And the numbers with women are catching up every day. This isn’t the end of the world, but it is something that both of you need to get together on to fight.
Spend time praying together and separately for this, and if you both work towards getting this out of your lives, I have every reason to believe that you will look back and see this as a turning point in your marriage towards something even better.
Thank you for your reply. I went through your blog this past hours and I know God brought me here…I am starting to calm down a little and breathe. I just hate that I discovered this in the postpartum zone…as you said, things look way worse than they really are. But THANK YOU for your suggestions, it encourages me to help him and also love him more. You are right about trust issues…I grew up with my dad cheating on my mom multiple time and I have hard time believing people when they actually tell the truth. While with my husband, I had a very good open communication, and he has proven in little things and big things in daily life that he is a very honest man, I never doubted anything he said or did. Because as I said, he is the most wonderful and honest man and dad..that is why my whole shock to this discovery. I know he is sorry, he was crying more than me, and he usually does not cry.
I want to help him.
Thank you again for your suggestions. I am in peace now.Thank you
I thought there might be something in your past exacerbating this. Thanks for taking the time to come back and give an update. My wife and I wish you the best, from a couple who has been in a similar situation.
An unmarried man is cheating his future wife if he resorts to masturbation ? – that a big laugh. This is precisely why I junked my bible and Christianity.
You can reaad my post on abstinence at http://faithbond777.wordpress.com/ to know more.
You are welcome to disagree, even discuss, but, well, your comment isn’t much of an argument. Could you present your reasons for disagreeing?
Oh, and I fixed your link. It was incorrect.
Welcome to the blog-o-sphere, but a point of etiquette: It’s a little rude to attempt to kick-start your blog by jumping on someone else for the first time, attacking their post and leaving a link to yours just to get traffic without ever intending to actually contribute a valid discussion.
Hi Jay Dee
First of all, let me begin with an apology. My intention for putting the link – thanks for correcting it, by the way – in my response was that I would not have to reproduce the reasons and my lengthy rationale, which is already on my blog. But when I see this from your perspective, if feels wrong. I’m sorry. Please thrash that comment so it is unavailable to others.
I see you have been kind enough to give me a detailed response to my article (Fallacies…), to which I replied to, but because you put it in the comment of my blog, my response too has gone there. I had intended to direct you to the abstinence article instead which contains my angst regarding the topic of masturbation.
Very briefly, my reasons for disagreeing are:
1. Sin has to be universal, it cannot be conditional. Something as basic as a need cannot (and should not) be a sin outside marriage and okay within. If it is, then the Christian God is unfair to people without partners. Some of these people have prayed for years for a partner and have not received. That makes the ask-and-you-shall-receive conditional too.
2. An unmarried man is cheating his future wife if he resorts to masturbation? How can this be true, logically? Why will an unmarried man settle for masturbation if he has access to a willing wife? What if this unmarried man is not granted a wife for decades despite his best effort?? Does he still have to pray to a Good Shepherd who decides / chooses to keep him in want? (this is true for both genders)
3. My personal experience with Christianity leaves a lot to be desired and so I have abandoned it. I find too many inconsistencies in the bible and it feels like a religion that is bent on taking all that is fun and enjoyable and making it a sin. It seems to thrive on self-denial, suffering, fear, etc.
In some of the responses I read, I guess you are of the view that a person grins and bears it, if his/her spouse denies them sex. And if this is to be for the rest of their lives, I feel this is not acceptable. But then these are a Christian God’s laws, which no right-minded Christian will argue about.
4. If you go through the history of Christianity, it seems it was put in place to overcome / replace a popular pagan religion. What if all these absurd sex rules (including the religion and the bible) are a conjuring of a church which is intent on celibacy?
5. Lust as a sin should be more linked with the desire to covet for sex, rather than passing thoughts or image used for the purpose of masturbation.
I won’t preach to people what to follow – let people follow their own path, and their own rules.
Not all christians feel masturbation in and of itself is a sin. Some of us take the belief that it’s wrong to think about any woman while doing it before marriage, and any other women other than your wife after marriage.
With the further provisos that it can be a danger before marriage as it can awaken sexual desire that then leads to other sin – much like giving an alcoholic a drink – some people can stop it leading to more, others can not, so why take the chance.
And for after marriage, it has to be not depriving your spouse – either physically and emotionally. If your spouse is there, you should be focussing on enjoying sex with her or just spending time with her. Where as there are cases where I think it can be allowed, as long as you only think about your spouse and it’s about maintaining a strong relationship with your spouse, for example those in the army who are away from their spouse for a long time and alternatives like phone/net sex are not an option due to privacy issues.
I think FB777 you seem to misunderstand christianity. Let me give an example, using alcohol again. There are those who say that they think christianity suck out all the fun out of life because the bible says getting drunk is wrong. But those who say that misunderstand – getting drunk is incredibly damaging to the human body and is dangerous and can lead to all sorts of bad things. There are some misguided christians who do try to suck all the fun out of it and say don’t drink at all. But there is nothing wrong with drinking – just within safe limits. Sex is like that. Christianity doesn’t suck all the fun out of sex. It just puts in place boundaries to protect people from negative consequences. If no one had sex outside of marriage, STDs would die out, no one would end up accidently pregnant and single, and there would be much few single parents out there (and trust me, it’s not fun being a single parent). Of course there are a few idiots who call themselves christians who twist things around and claim that even married people shouldn’t have sex – or at the very least, they shouldn’t enjoy it or desire it. But that’s just misguided individuals, not genuine christianity.
Christians can have lots of fun – just God has put boundaries in place for our protection.
Hi ButterflyWings
Thank you for your response, but I have to say the following:
1. My main objection and discussion is limited to the perspective of a single, never-unmarried person.
2. No one awakens sexual desire – it awakens itself. And when you have no recourse to it, mainly for extended durations of time, only then do you have to resort to what Christians refer to as “temptation”. And what most of the Christian religious suggest is take refuge in some bible phrases and suppress it down, for God knows how long. Or they provide laughable solutions: take a cold shower”
3. I assume you are married and have access to sex, for you choose to use the “boundaries” argument. What safe limits are you talking about for an unmarried guy in his mid-forties who’s never had sex, who’s not been able to get a wife for some reason that only God knows about, and who knows that most people are getting (probably limitless, if not some) sex both within and without those boundaries you mention. And for what? Because he is supposed to stay a Christian? For people who tell me these things, I get mad enough to throw the book at them – the bible, that is.
I don’t mean to come out this strongly, but that’s the way I feel, not personally about you though. And to me, Christianity is worse than denied sex. If you are in my shoes and the Christian God has kept you in want for so long, is he the one you are going to take refuge in?
FB777 I would beg to differ about sexual desire not being “awaken”. I have a very high drive for a woman, but before I met my first husband, I was not the least bit interested. And after that marriage ended, I had very little desire for sex until I met the man who became my second husband. In both circumstances, desire was definitely “awakened”. After losing my first marriage, I felt absolutely no “temptation” at all until things got serious with my second husband. Considering my very high sex drive and years of doing it with my first husband, then a number of years before I even met my second husband, I can guarantee the desire is controllable, even for those who have years of “experience”.
So while I may be married now, I know what it’s like to be unmarried for years after years of a previous marriage. Years of not (morally) having access to sex.
And I never believed I would remarry. After losing my first marriage, I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life alone. Which is a big thing for someone who was just 27 at the time to face. Having known sex, it’s not easy to spend years thinking you will never have it ever again. There is still hope for you to marry and enjoy the pleasures of a happy sexual relationship.
The boundaries I talk about (keeping sex within marriage only), is to protect you from things like STIs and unwanted pregnancies etc. Having had an STI from my cheating first husband that may one day kill me, it’s not an easy thing to deal with. Do you want that? To have a potential death sentence hanging over your head for the few minutes pleasure of sex?
Condoms aren’t perfect – my now-ex husband and I were using condoms because I had an allergy to his stuff. It didn’t stop him giving me HPV from one of his mistresses.
Monogamy is the only true protection from STIs (other than total abstinence of course). That is why boundaries around sex and marriage are so important.
Hi ButterflyWings, thank you for sharing a bit about your life and consequently your view.
Your being a woman explains everything, which is why you can use the word “awaken”. For men, it is different. It is almost a life and death situation – sex is that strong and needed. This can be evidenced from statistics of masturbation, the gender patronizing prostitution, age of first sexual indulgence, the gender of the initiator of sex in any type of relationship, rape stats, and so on. For woman, sex can be awakened because it comes via the emotions route.
Marriage offers no protection from STDs – it didn’t protect you, and HIV-aids can be got via means other than sex. So, being monogamous and then being faithful in marriage is no guarantee against the things you talk about.
But we have digressed from my point of argument, and that is theologically, masturbation is inherently a sin, and the advantages of sex are only to be enjoyed by the people who’ve had the opportunity to have a willing partner; as if singles are children of a lesser God. So when I read statements like “An unmarried man is cheating his future wife if he resorts to masturbation”, I am more than willing to generously donate a few expletives and correct that notion, that one-sided inherently unfair reasoning.
The only time I can rest my argument is when every single lonely person has a mate (in preferably a married relationship), free to experience sex just as much as any other person. Until then, religious statements made on this blog hold little value to me.
Sorry FB777 I don’t know if you are still around and I totally forgot to reply until I came back and read some new comments on here. I would beg to differ about the desire for sex being a gendered thing. Almost all of the things you list like masturbation, prostitution etc, with the exception of rape, are only more common in men because of gender socialisation not because of actual desire. For most of history, women have been seen as men’s property and as sex objects for men. Women are told “good girls” don’t desire sex”, only “bad girls” desire sex, while men are told “a real men gets as much nookie as he can, wherever he can” etc. It is the same reason why men’s depression goes undiagnosed and untreated much more than women’s – because of society cramming down their throats that “real men don’t cry”, “men don’t have emotions” etc. Sex has the same potential to be emotional for men and women, and the same strength of physical desire in men and women – the only differences in statistics is due to society forcing men and women into preconceived notions of what they should think and feel about sex.
Being married AND monogamous is 100% protection from STDs. My problem was my first husband was NOT monogamous. It takes both parties being monogamous to provide protection from STDs. And AIDS is sadly a poor example. It is not purely an STD. As you said – it can be got via other routes. Monogamy protects from diseases that are true STDs, and it also protects from transmission of blood borne diseases through sex. It obviously doesn’t protect from other methods of transmission of blood borne disease but then, as I mentioned, they aren’t then technically “STDs” either.
As someone who has been married twice, trust me when I say singles are definitely not lesser people. If you go back through the writings of Paul, it’s pretty clear the heavy burden that marriage can be. Yes there are great rewards (sex, children, partnership etc), but it comes at the price of being able to do whatever you want to do when you want to do it, and for those who believe in God, it comes at the price of being able to solely focus on your relationship with God – with your partner and children dividing your attention up. Instead of your own plans and desires coming first, you have to compromise those for your partner and children.
In many ways, it is the single person who is better off. The married person gets sex, but they get an awful lot of burden and responsibility with it. I mean Paul was pretty clear when he wrote it’s actually better to be single. Sure you don’t get sex, but you get freedom. I think that isn’t taught often enough in church. Marriage is wrongly taught as the superior state but it’s actually singledom that has more benefits. Marriage is for those of those who can’t survive without companionship. I believe one of the reasons God gave me my second husband is because even though I could resist the temptation to have sex outside of marriage, it was incredibly to be going without it.
I honestly believe there is enough in the bible to show that God does provide marriage partners to those who truly cannot bear the burden of lack of companionship and sex. We all have our cross to bear. For the single man or woman, that is no sex. For the married man or woman, it is the difficulties of having a partner (and even though my second husband is the most amazing man I know, he’s still a man! and he certainly knows how to drive me crazy).
You wrote, “The married person gets sex,” Not all married people.I do not get any sex from my wife.
Thank you for this! Last night I was smacked with this reality again when my husband confessed once again he still struggles with this. We’ve only been married a little over four years and in that time I’ve had to forgive him a few times already for similar issues. It’s difficult for me because we stayed pure during our 6 months of courtship and 6 months of engagement but I was a virgin at 28 when we were married but he wasn’t. I knew this and forgave him before even dating because it was before he accepted Christ as his Savior. Everything you said is spot on and definitely follows Biblical guidelines! Thank you for your Biblical view and sharing with us! Don’t let the naysayers cause you to stop sharing what God has shown you in His Word! This has helped me tremendously!
Hey Amy,
I’m glad it helped, and I’m sorry you’re both going through this.
Also, forgot to mention that I’m definitely not a woman that withholds from my husband… We are together about 4 to 5 times a week… I don’t understand still why that’s not enough?
That’s good! Why is it not enough? I’m willing to bet that it doesn’t have anything to do with it not being enough. It likely has more to do with the fact that it’s addictive and now he’s having trouble breaking free. Find out what his pattern is, when/where/what he’s using/why he does it. Then work to change the circumstances.
If he works from home and does it then, maybe he needs to work out of a coffee shop for a while. Or if he stays up late and then does it, start going to bed earlier.
If you are willing, let him know he can come to you any time, without reservation and you’ll help him with any desires.
Thanks for your write up God bless you.It just dawned on me that my husband has a problem with masturbation.I have caught him on the dinning table while reading,under the duvet several times and yesterday on the bed as soon as he got back home. Each time I catch him,I pretend not to see anything.I don’t even know how to confront him about it.He is also addicted to pornography.He told me he has stopped watching them,but was surprised he flared up and shouted the day I wanted to throw away his pornographic dvds,he said he will dispose them by himself,and did that almost immediately only for him to hide one of the dvds(I didn’t tell him I saw were he hid it) I have never refused him sex.On one or two occasions I did,he got angry and I had to apologise and let him have his way.He doesn’t doesn’t like discussing romance and sex.when I ask him if there was any other thing I can do to please him in bed, he told me I was doing well.
It’s going to be very hard to talk about the porn use and the masturbation if he’s not comfortable discussing the sexual activities that don’t come with guilt attached.
When do you normally try to discuss sex/the relationship/romance? My suggestion, if you haven’t already tried, is right after sex, lying side-by-side in the dark.
1) He’s got a bunch of oxytocin in him, which makes him trust more, more relaxed and more loving
2) It’s side by side, it’s easier to talk about uncomfortable things when you aren’t face to face
3) It’s in the dark, so that adds to the safety factor, you can’t see facial expressions, and men have been taught that emotions are weakness, so if he can just use words, body language or facial expressions, it might be easier to ease into it.
Also, talk about something besides the porn use and masturbation for the first discussion. Let him know you are willing to have sex whenever he wants, that you are open to new things, but that you are content with your sex life as it is (unless that isn’t true, don’t lie). If he opens up, it will be easier down the road (maybe days, maybe weeks, depends on the husband) to open up the discussion to other things.
It took us a long time to get used to talking about sex, and then more time to talk about masturbation and porn, and then again a long time to start talking dirty (honestly, that one’s still not 100% comfortable), but we get better the more practice we have, and every time you step into a new area or topic, it’s going to feel weird at first. Now we can talk about just about anything, but it took work and practice, it doesn’t come instantaneously or by default.
Jay Dee,
I have a question.
Let me first tell you about the situation. We were married back in the late eighties. Both of us have high sex drives. We would make love daily, or just about daily. It was hard to get pregnant because of this. I did not know this at the time, but it puts your sperm count way down with daily orgasms. We were advised to abstain until right before ovulation, then, we finally got pregnant. Those abstaining days were hard on us. I’m glad it was only two cycles before I got pregnant, using the abstaining method. We continued to make love daily throughout the pregnancy. The bigger issues started after childbirth. I was in really rough shape and nearly died. I won’t go into the details but it was really bad. I was a complete mess down there. I had to drag around a catheter bag for more than 3 weeks. We were told to abstain during those 6 weeks after delivery so I could heal, so we did. It was hard on us. Then I found out I healed badly. I had my first reconstructive surgery shortly after that initial 6 week waiting period. We had to wait another 6 weeks for healing after the reconstructive surgery. It turned out to be an unsuccessful operation. I went for a second reconstructive surgery. Now let’s count for 6 more weeks of waiting. This last surgery was successful, thank God!
My question to you Jay is…was my husband sinning because he masturbated during the time it took for me to get back to normal? We were used to daily sex before the baby was born. After the baby was born, we had to wait until I was healed properly. The total time involved was 4 1/2 months. Isn’t that a lot to ask of a husband with a high sex drive? He nearly lost me and he temporarily lost our love making too. Just trust me, I was in no condition to participate in any sex. After the childbirth, I was fighting for my life. I even had Mom come over and help me with everything. Did my husband sin? After the 4 1/2 months we went back to the daily love making and no more masturbating solo.
Was there something preventing him from doing so in your presence, with you involved? Why did it have to be solo and separate? “Participating in sex” can have a very low, or no, physical involvement.
Jay, I was so sick. I could not do much of anything. I was so close to death. It was so awful. Mom would come and take care of me and baby, even though she has a husband (my dad) with cancer at home. I was in much worse shape, at the time. Truly.
We (DH and I) both hoped this was a short temporary setback. Sex at that moment in time was secondary to survival for me. My DH had sexual needs that went beyond my physical capabilities at that time. After delivery, I healed shut and my body filled with toxins. Like I said, I was in rough shape. This was devastating to both of us. I think it blew his mind to think that he almost lost me (near death). He had needs that I was physically unable to fulfill. Kisses never stopped or anything loving, just not intercourse. He only has orgasms with intercourse and with nothing else. Believe me, we do it all, but he he only has O’s with PIV. Don’t forget that I was dragging around a catheter bag too. It’s just not sexy.
I just could not do intercourse…for 4 1/2 months. I would not wish this on anyone. Masturbating did embarrass him to do it and that’s partly why it was done in private. The other part is that we have a high drive. He did not want me to feel any worse then I did because I physically could not do PIV. This was something he did during this awful time in our lives. It stopped the day we successfully made love after this whole ordeal. It’s never happened again. Since our wedding night, we have made love almost every day/night with the exception of those 4 1/2 months. That’s why I was wondering if under extreme circumstances is it not sin. His purpose was for physical release while I was unable to do it. This was not ordinary postpartum. I think even the Lord looks at each situation. So, Jay, was it a sin in my DH’s case?
I stand corrected. He only has O’s with PIV and maturbation when DW was physically unable.
Alright, you keep asking for my opinion, so here it is. Keep in mind, it’s just the opinion of a regular guy.
So, in my post is sex a need or a want, I came to the conclusion that sex is a need for the relationship, but a want for a person. We don’t NEED sex to survive. We can manage just fine, regardless of drive. It may not be the most pleasant existence, but you can exist and still have a fulfilling life. So, to me, you cannot claim it’s a need in that regard.
Sex IS a need for a marriage. However, what makes it a need is exactly what makes solo masturbation invalid for fulfilling the need. It is a need because of the connection and the bond that is shared/created during sex. When you masturbate alone, you break that function of sex. Therefore, saying you have to masturbate to fulfill the need is very similar to saying you need to have an affair to save the marriage in my mind. I know the bulk of the population will disagree with me on that one though.
Now, there is another principle at work though, and this is far more theology than about sex. I’m not sure you can sin without knowing it’s a sin, or at least, I’m not sure it’s held against you. Not to say that it doesn’t still have a negative impact, but I’m not sure where it sits on judgement (which is sort of a moot point given Christ died for us, but still a point). The Bible teaches that God winks at ignorance, but once we know something is sin, we should not continue to sin. As well, there is forgiveness for any repented sin.
So, it depends on what you mean by sin. Is it a sin against God counted against him? I’m not sure if your husband wasn’t aware he was sinning. Is it what God intended? I’m going to say no. In that sense, anything that is against God’s will is sin.
Is that clear? Or have I made it worse?
I understand where you are coming from with this. I guess, I just thought this was a (4 1/2 month) season in my hubby’s life and neither one of us saw it as sinning against God. I like the way things are now. Okay, no more beating a dead horse. Thanks for answering my pesky questions.
Not pesky at all! I just don’t want people to think I’m the authority on what is sin or not. This blog is merely my opinion, which very well could be wrong. I love having the chance to show my thought process and have a real discussion.
If you don’t think it’s a sin, I don’t really have a problem with that. We all have our own walk with God, and it’s not my place to judge yours.
I am in disagreement with most of the overall comments on masturbation. God made us with hands, senses like our mind, smell, touch etc. He also made us to reach our privates. That may not come across as the strongest argument to masturbate; however, masturbation plays an important and well documented part of physical development from boys to men. Furthermore, people throughout the ages have all masturbated included well before the modern period of pictures and movies. There is a constant association between masturbation and porn and while this is true that people male and female use porn to masturbate. People male and female masturbate without it as well. Men NORMALLY masturbate when their wives are pregnant and masturbation increases during such times. Men masturbate for different reasons. Some do it to go to sleep including women. Some fantasize and others don’t. I can tell you from personal experience I have always masturbate (99% of the time without porn). I have seen porn, do not subscribe to it or buy it and do agree it can be addicting). However, I masturbate within my marriage for a variety of reasons. My wife has a serious medical condition and had great pain on any given day. Sex is something we do only when she can really perform often with pain medication. There are times she has masturbated me because she cannot perform. She knows I masturbated during both pregnancies because she had difficult pregnancies and was in bed for months. Opps, I am a full born again Christian and am comfortable in my faith. I have told my wife about my rare and occasional use of porn and we have as honest Christians used porn in the bedroom at time. She is not a big fan of it and to some extent same for me. But I will admit it does arouse me (and her).
I will also admit as someone that practices celibacy that my wife is the only woman I had sexual intercourse with all my life. Masturbation played an important role in keeping my celibacy before marriage. Since I lacked and sexual experience with other women, I have used porn on many occasions to learn. Yes there is a lot to learn by watching other people do it.
Hopefully, you get the picture. Masturbation has an important role in sexual development. Jesus Christ the son of the living GOD was here as Man and made no reference to this topic. He also made no reference to Homosexual relationships. We will never know why he did not comment on these topics. Is it possible, GOD knows us well enough and gave us the ability to Self sex pleasure ourselves so we can stay faithful to our partners? For me, the most important thing in my marriage of 32 years has been to be honest with my wife. She knows my needs, she knows how to satisfy me, she knows there are times when she could not and understands or even helps me masturbate. I see lots of comments assuming that ALL masturbation is PORN related, this is absolute nonsense. People do not need porn to do it. Porn is a different topic. There is quite a variety of porn including INSTRUCTIONAL porn, yes porn that teaches different positions and techniques for sex. Since this is not taught in the family or church, throughout history, men and women have had to figure it out on their own. I know a beautiful couple that marriage failed partly because the man was unhappy as his wife was not good in bed and simply did not know what to do. She was not sexually active before marriage.
Porn is dangerous and addicting but if used wisely or as a couple, can add new life and excitement to a marriage. There is lots of porn that teaches how to use certain sex toys and how NOT to use them and safety etc.
We need to discuss masturbation, porn, human sexuality honestly. While they do overlap, cherry picking scripture to support a view does nothing to address human sexuality in marriage. I leave you with this: simply be honest with your spouse.
I would have to say I disagree with nearly everything you said, especially that about porn being beneficial. I don’t know how you could support that one with scripture, cherry picking or otherwise.
And while I agree that it is very important to be honest with your spouse, that is not enough. It is not OK to have an affair so long as you are open about it, for example.
jepvr one does not need to “know what to do” to be good in bed. When I married my first husband, I was a virgin, he was very experienced. Despite his hatred for me, he will still admit I was the best sex he had because I made the effort to please HIM. Not men in general, but him and only him. He on the other hand was hopeless despite all his experience. When I married my second husband, he was a virgin. Yet he is absolutely amazing in bed despite no experience at all. Why? because he makes the effort to please me. He has learnt what I enjoy, not what women in general might enjoy. Because he has not learnt bad habits of trying to do things that other women would have enjoyed. He may not have sex often (it’s definitely looking like a testosterone problem – initial blood tests point towards it but he hasn’t had the follow up ones yet), but when we do have sex, we both find it amazing.
The couple you are talking about, it sounds tragic. But all the experience and instructional porn in the world would not have made a difference. Finding pleasure in bed is about working together and finding out what the other enjoys and doing it. It doesn’t need experience or instruction or talent. It just requires love and effort.
Hi, Sorry but due to the nature of the topic I need to be a bit explicit
I am a Christian woman who enjoys pleasuring herself through touch as part of my sexual experience with my husband. When my husband arouses me I like to touch myself before he goes in, sometimes I orgasm but then that makes me even more ready for him and when he’s inside me I will orgasm even more than I would without first touching myself. Making masturbation part of my sex life gives me a feeling of wholeness whereas simply orgasming with penetration isn’t enough…likewise neither is clitoral stimulation, I like both. My husband could touch me but he’s very hurried in our love-making and rough and he simply doesn’t know how to do it as well as me, when I’m doing that he’s with me kissing/caressing me or doing his favourite thing to do kissing my breasts so it’s not as though I’m excluding him but he’s got this “thing” about me touching myself and says he feels like he’s a failure when I do it but then again he’s got this “thing” about my fluids, he doesn’t like me to be wet when we’re having sex and sees something “wrong” with it. I find the whole thing frustrating, could you do an article about this perhaps? Masturbation is not the domain of men and neither is it always a solo pursuit, my husband knows that without him or thinking of him I cannot orgasm and I certainly don’t enjoy it at the expense of my sex life with him, I just want it to be part of it.
Hi Chris,
Just to clarify, you want me to write a post about masturbation during sex or at least with your spouse?
Yes please. I’d like him to see that this isn’t a form of rejection, it’s something that women do partly because of the way they are made and it’s something that’s it’s okay to celebrate. My desire to express myself in this way is BECAUSE of how he makes me feel not because he’s doing something wrong. I think it’s important for men to understand why (some) women need this and that it’s healthy so long as they are included in this. Since writing my initial comment I see that I think the reason men are so cut up about it (I’ve read a couple of forums and seen how many guys seem to be horrified that women are doing this) is because they only have one place of pleasure, when a man masturbates apart from watch him there isn’t much you can do but when a woman does it he can join in, also for a man his penis is his pleasure zone so he naturally thinks that for a woman it’s just her vagina and doesn’t realise that the clitoris needs stimulation too. I just wanted to put this out there because firstly masturbation is generally seen as a man thing and second I’d like it to be shown that it can be healthy provided we understand what the boundaries are. Thank you for responding to my comment and letting me speak in such a frank and open manner. Warm regards.
That sounds like it would be a great post. Been meaning to write one on the subject actually, but you’ve given me some more ideas. I’m going to challenge a few of your assumptions though, I hope that’s OK.
And you’re welcome to be frank and open. Basically, so long as it is honest and not vulgar for the sake of being vulgar, or to be titillating, I’m open to discussion.
Oh please do Jay! I came here to learn believe it or not I’m fasting and praying about a few things and find myself here! I was saying to someone the other day that I am convinced we don’t have the full mind of God in this area, sex is NOT just about baby-making, after all we have other bodily functions that don’t have such emotion attached to them. I have been praying about past hurts and yet God seems to be opening me up in this area and I cannot help but realise He is not pleased for me to say “I surrender all” but then lock Him out of my bedroom -not that we’re practising anything ungodly but I think He wants to be fully involved in this area of my life.
I am so glad for this forum, I’m never normally this forthright usually more cryptic but I’m opening myself up so I can get some help. Please challenge away, new Biblical perspectives are appreciated. Bless you 🙂
Awesome, I love meeting people who like to be challenged.
That’s a good point, it’s important to always look at ourselves and think “What can do I to grow next?” So often, we want to look to our spouses to grow, when we have plenty of work on our own.
Seriously?! Because we don’t get laid!
Hi Joe,
Well, that’s a catalyst I think, but not an underlying reason. Are you saying if you had enough sex, you wouldn’t masturbate? According to Paul’s recent survey, only 38% of men and 18% of women claim that sexual refusal was a reason for masturbating.
You’re kidding right Joe? I know of men who have sex 3-4 times a DAY and yet still masturbate. And you’re obviously unaware that in 25% of marriages it is the woman who has the higher sex drive and the male who is refusing sex. And the funny thing is, where the male is the refuser, they nearly all masturbate. It has nothing to do with the man not getting laid.
Obviously, couples (especially religious couples) seem to have as much of a problem with the topic of masturbation as they do with something like anal sex. Sorry about the comparison, but it will do for discussion purposes. The point is, many women feel as if their partner is being “selfish” if they take pleasure in their own body, as if – after marriage – a man’s sexual pleasure is supposed to come ONLY from his partner. I think that’s actually “selfish” of the female. Other women feel “threatened” or “cheated-upon” if their man enjoys viewing erotic material. Ignore the fact that many women (including religious women) read “romantic novels.” It’s all about fantasy, people. In some ways, I think the topic of masturbation is like eating sushi or kimchi; it’s definitely an “acquired taste,” and as such it might be possible to “educate” one’s partner about it, to explain to one’s partner WHY you enjoy it, but sometimes the other person’s “aversion” to masturbation is just so strong that you’re never going to get them to try it, enjoy it or accept it. I would like to think that education and communication are the answers to all of Life’s problems, but actually it’s more like the ACCEPTANCE of education. A person has to want to ALLOW their perception about something to be changed – or at least to allow for the POSSIBILITY of change. That’s the real roadblock to an issue like masturbation – opposing feelings so deep and strong that one refuses to accept that there might be other valid attitudes and positions.
Oh, I would argue there is a big difference between sushi and masturbation…
And I would tend to lean the other way, that the women reading “romantic novels” are being just as unfaithful as the men who are erotic material.
The world keeps trying to tell us that porn and masturbation are healthy and acceptable and “everyone does it”, and now they’re working towards telling us that affairs are good and natural and healthy as well.
You are – of course – entitled to your “scripture-based” opinion and feelings where any kind of sexual activity is concerned; however, please keep in mind that it is an opinion. If that is what works for you, then by all means live by it. But do not use it as a benchmark by which to judge others as “right” or “wrong.” I’m guessing you view masturbation and the reading or viewing of any kind of erotica as some kind of “slippery slope” to hell. Again, you are entitled to that opinion. I choose to not agree with it.
No, the issue is not that I feel it is a “slippery slope” to hell (however that is a factor), but more than I believe it has real-world immediate and long standing negative effects on the marriage.
Negative effects on “your” marriage perhaps, but not ours. We’ve been very happily married for 44 years and neither masturbation nor erotica pose any kind of threat to our relationship. If it does for you, then you must choose to stay away from it. I do not prescribe it for you nor do I have any intention of trying to “justify” it to you. But there are plenty of couples for whom this is not any kind of serious problem to their relationship.
The problem is that many people don’t realize the damage they are doing until they stop and begin to heal, which can take time.
Be it spirituality, health, porn, drugs or violence, often in the midst of it, we think we’re fine. It’s only looking back that we realize how damaging our lifestyle was and what we’ve missed out on.
So”you’re still insisting that both masturbation and/or erotica is “bad;” that it is “damaging.”
Well”in retrospect, in hindsight – and I dare say that 44 married years qualifies as a significant period of time – we both see no “damage.” Now, you can put this exchange to rest, or we can continue it ad infinitum. You have your opinion. We have ours – not to mention some real life experience with which to back it up. I do not think that we are particularly unique as a married couple, nor that we possess any particular “immunity” to the supposed “damage” you keep suggesting. Your turn…
This is the best most logical Christian explanation for why pornography is damaging.
I’d note to others who see no harm for themselves, many of the porn industry actors are exploited and physically and emotionally damaged. You are supporting that behavior by watching it.
This is a very good article. It has mostly answered me as i am currently facing such a problem in my marriage.
I do not watch or desire porn. My wife is always too busy, too tired, not in the mood, on the Ipad, on the phone, watching television or some other lame excuse. I shave, take several showers a day, brush my teeth and in very good shape. Woman are always hitting on me at the grocery store, but my wife rarely wants sex. Instead of getting mad at men for the “m” thing and the need for pornography, why not focus on why women are disobeying the bible and refusing to have sex with their husbands! That is the root cause of why men are doing things they should not be doing.
Hey Don,
Yeah, I get where your coming from. So, why not focus on it?
1) I have written about it frequently, so I do focus on it.
2) I have to write to both sides of the marriage, in the hopes that one will at least be listening, but it does no good to tell the spouse being refused that their spouse shouldn’t be doing it.
3) It’s not always the wife refusing the husband, sometimes the dynamic is switched.
4) It’s not the root cause, it’s just a catalyst. The root cause is a lack of self-control and/or selfishness. There are plenty of wives who tell me they offer themselves willingly to their husbands, and the husbands are still masturbating.
Hope that answers the question.
Don I am one of those wives who constantly offer, and even in the past has begged for sex. I used to ask every day, then every second day, then twice a week and now I only try once a week and still usually get rejected. My husband has done this our entire marriage and it hurts incredibly. I am always ready and willing. In our entire marriage, I think I have said no a total of two times and I was very very sick or physically hurting those days (chronic health problems), and couldn’t move. And hubby didn’t mind – it was quite obvious he was only offering because he knew I’d have to say no and was doing it build up my self esteem with no desire on his part to follow through with the offer (he’s offered before when he thought I’d say no and then backed out when I surprised him and said yes despite how sick and in pain I was).
Yet he still masturbates. So women turning down men is not always the root cause of why men masturbate. It might be for some, it might even be for most, but it is certainly not all.
I guess I see this from a few angles. I’m a recovering alcoholic who also happens to be addicted to other things. I think if there was open communication right of the bat and we were “equally yoked” when it came to sexual desire, things would be perfect. Unfortunately I came into the marriage with a long past of masturbation and when marriage didn’t fulfill what I thought it would and I’d finally gave up asking for it masturbation just became part of my routine. Unfortunately I took it to the next level. So…. I guess a thought that has come into my mind recently is maybe I should have been more selective in a partner and found someone that had a sexual appetite similar to mine. Or maybe if I’d been honest about it off the start it would have resolved things. But I think ultimately it would have resulted in her not being with me so option #1 was probably inevitable.
Wait a minute. You can’t quote “unequally yoked” when it comes to sex drive, that is taking that verse way out of context.
So, in short it sounds like you have some issues to work on in your marriage, and instead of dealing with them, you resort to masturbation. That’s not much of an excuse, sorry.
I think it’s time to man up and start addressing your issues and working through them, both your own individually and together with your spouse. It’s not too late. Start now.
Two passages come to mind:
Philippians 3:12-14, 4:12-13
I’m getting married and I know that masturbation is an issue…I do it to and I believe we both masturbate more than we have sex together…I’ve addressed my issues through therapy and I’m working on it….mine is not an addiction but a feeling of insecurity when I’m with a man…I’ve made leaps and bounds in my security but now find out that he masturbates almost daily and it’s for sure affecting us in the bedroom….I just want to know the best way to approach him without backing him into a corner or embarrassing him. The last thing I want is for him to shut down…please help me…..thank you soooo much
Hi Tonya,
Well…from a Christian perspective, there are two issues here I think:
1) Sex prior to marriage is against biblical principles. So if you are wondering what to talk about, and want to hold to Biblical truth…then vowing to remain celibate prior to marriage would be my advice, though I understand it is incredibly hard to do so after you have already had sex…but I’ve seen couples do it.
2) Masturbation is an issue and is going to be an issue for as long as either (or both) of you are participating in it. that’s my opinion at least, others will disagree. I have a more detailed post on that subject.
So, that said, it’s hard to help you sort out what to say, without knowing what your beliefs on the subject are. You seem to believe that more masturbation than sex is an issue (and I’d agree), but I don’t know if you believe that masturbation itself is an issue. And you don’t seem to believe that pre-marital sex is an issue. So, that’s fairly outside of my context.
What I will say is the best course of action is always to be open and transparent about your feelings. Talk about what you believe, what you feel. Don’t point fingers, don’t prescribe changes for him. If you want him to stop, tell him how it makes you feel, not that he needs to stop. Does that help?
I would love an answer ASAP so I can talk to him about this before I go about the wrong way…lol
Hi my husband travels alot and had some questions and found your website. Here is my .02 cents. My husband follows another ”higher power” , not whom he calls “God” 🙁 that said, he’s said alot of thing that makes me suspicious from time to time. The worst one, he now claims he doesn’t MASTURBATE. Which I blame on me partly that I don’t have the sex drive I used to and I’m happily happy not to have (sex) ; I had my wild days but since I hit and finished menopause, I don’t even like masturbating myself–thank God for that I guess and I’m satisfied WITHOUT. My husband on the other hand brings up his higher power thingy and he claims I SHOULD WANT HIM MORE but truthfully, I’m sickened by his past indiscretions at relieving himself freely on the road; the more I think of his sick behavior-that’s all I need to resent having sex with him at all. What’s wrong with me! I take whatever he has to dish about sex and I end up laying there, even faking orgasm on him. I know he continues masturbating and, isn’t telling me; I tell him if he is and if he thinks saving me from hurt will, he’s wrong. I even told him with conviction that all I have to do is send my spirit to him wherever he is and I would know. Needless to say, he get’s very angry when I blurt that out especially that I know alot of women have thrown theirselves at him. Why is that?
“”.I meant , that I wouldn’t care if he “cheated”, in fact,I’ve told him I’d be relieved that I was off the hook from doing him! Don’t get me wrong, I’ve “loved” alot of men in my lifetime and I guess I love my husband-I am just not in-love with him. But I do care about him. Truth be known, his very smell makes me nauseaus. Help please.
Alright, I’m confused by a great many things here:
1) So, he claims he doesn’t masturbate anymore, and you don’t believe him. Why not?
2) What is this “send my spirit” thing?
3) Is he having affairs? I’m confused.
4) You wouldn’t care if he had an affair?!
When I was single, I used to masturbate quite a bit and realised after forming a deeper relationship with God that this was not doing me a lot of good. Now married I am grateful that I learned the importance of self control and while I am not perfect I always try to seek the pleasure for my husband. Lately though I have noticed that he is on his phone a lot, on facebook or reading other things or playing games and I have felt a little neglected or ignored. We talked about this and he didnt realise it. One thing he is good at is attending to my needs if I voice something (but if i don’t he wont realise it). I suspect that he is masturbating when I am around or at night when he thinks I am asleep and I am tired of pretending to be ignorant of it. How should I go about talking to him?
Hi Jay, I wrote you back some months ago when I first discover about this whole drama thing. If I could..I would scream HELP in every street I walk. I have grown so much hate inside of me. Somebody destroyed that beautiful castle of a princess and prince and I am crushed. Two months after I discovered my husbands struggle with masturbation and learned that all men have this struggle- came to find out that my dad is porn addicted too. ( don’t ask me the details of this, I still want to throw up when I think about it).
Now- I cannot chill when we go to the swimming pool- when we are out for dinner-when women walk close by to my husband-basically I have turned into a freak. I don’t know how to render my pain-we make love often- 4 times a week- we both enjoy it but my mind is obsessed with thoughts of what he is thinking. Now I can totally call myself a total insecure looser. I have said it out loud a lot of times to my husband that had I known all these- I would never ever gotten married and gone on missions serving God and never cared about being married. One day I read about the last days of David in the bible, when he was so old and cold that they gave him a young beautiful woman to keep him warm and I bursted in tears of hate disgust. I just want to live happy like I was before and I feel like my joy in enjoying my family has gone since that day. Please help!
Well, not all men, but yeah, I’d say the majority. It’s something we often struggle with as a gender. Many women do as well.. Other men and women have their own struggles. Sin is sin. Struggling with sexuality is no worse than struggling with negative thoughts, or with over eating, or with laziness, or with the myriad of sins we struggle with as humans.
You need to learn to let go of that hate. You need to work towards learning to trust your husband again I think. I understand this is a big blow in a short time, learning that both your husband and father struggle with this (and David in the Bible as well), but that sin is not yours to bear. It’s Christ’s. To carry it yourself, to fight it like this is to deny that He has taken on that job. Let’s Jesus take the burden of it. Focus on Christ’s death and what that means for all of us, including David, your husband, your father, and yourself. That’s my advice.
And perhaps seek the counsel of a trusted church member, perhaps an elder or a pastor. This should not be consuming your daily thoughts. You are damaging your mental state, which can lead to many other issues.
Hi Jay- thank you for replying, It took some time to understand your reply…I guess accept it I should say..I prayed..and I prayed..and then a Sunday in church we had a group of men from teen challenge come and witness for their life how God had transformed it…I don’t know how and in what way God changed my heart, but I did leave the church holding my husbands hand so tight to mine that day. I refused to let that hate destroy our marriage. I know he loves me, and I spoke openly with him about it. Today-I am in love with him again and I have decided that for every time his past come to my mind, I would think about my sins and how mercifully God forgave my sins. Thank you! It did help your reply and I appreciate it!
I masturbate because my wife is always tired or busy, so we only do it 2-3 times a month–if that.
My husband for all of 39 years masturbated next to me in bed, stole magazines, watched porn on tv while I slept and now watches porn videos. He can’t look at a woman without having un clean thoughts. 18 years ago our 20 year old son killed himself, but that didn’t do anything to change him. He’s not a very compassionate person and rarely thinks of me. I am the opposite, wait on him hand and foot and have loved sex, but since the videos he didn’t want me. I thought he couldn’t get it up anymore, so I didn’t force the issue, but now I see the real picture. He’s lied, snuck around, shared what is our marriage and yet I am suppose to feel sorry for him. What more can I give him. I wish I never was married, what a waste of a wonderful woman with so much. Its unthankful, selfish and sad that men are this way. . . . sick.
If I suspect that my husband might be masturbating, is it my place to find out? Or let it go?
Why not just ask him?
So my husband and I havensex almost everyday and I catch him before work or in the middle ofnthe night masterbating to porn and he knows it hurts me that he dose that and make me vary angry and yet he still continues and not only that when I catch him doing he it he trys to lie to my face about it even though I saw with my vary two eyes what was being done behind my back why could he be doing this??
Hi Jen,
Well, in my non-professional opinion, I’d guess that his masturbation is less about the physical act of sex (which, as you’ve said is happening frequency), but is more about emotional intimacy, or perhaps security. This is based on two things:
Firstly, that he continues to watch porn and masturbate, despite daily sex.
Secondly, that he lies and hides it, showing that he doesn’t feel secure discussing his struggles with you.
Perhaps the relationship needs more emotional vulnerability? Any thoughts on that?
Good article and please forgive if this has already been brought up. Another reason that a married man may masturbate is that he has a higher libido than his wife. This is the issue for my wife and I especially when we are in our rhythm of 3 times a week. I want more and right now this is the most she can muster. So there are times when I will masturbate, because I know that she is doing everything to make it 3 nights and it makes her feel bad to say no to me. I will say that when we are not in our rhythm then I don’t feel the urge as much. I usually think about the night before or think about our up coming tryst most of the time. I do some times fantasize of other things and that are the ones that makes me feel guilty, I’m working on those issues as I know they are wrong this is about 50% of the time.
Hi,
I think it might have been brought up before, but that’s okay. I would argue that differing drives is not a cause, merely a catalyst or a temptation. There is no reason you can’t manage on a diet of 3 times a week. You just don’t want to. What it sounds like you are saying is that you’d rather masturbate alone than wait for your wife, that the physical sensation is more important than keeping sexuality between the two of you. Is she aware that you masturbate? I’m curious what her thoughts are on it. I wonder if you would continue to masturbate if you knew it was hurting her, that it was damaging your marriage?
I thought when I got married I would never masterbate again. My wife and I never had sex before we were married. Every girl I dated wanted sex outside of marriage, so I dumped them. I was surprised that the women wanted sex as much as I did. I couldn’t wait to get married.
Since getting married, my wife doesn’t like to be touched and sex is painful for her. I yearn for passion and sex with her every morning and every night, but she is content to never have it. The last time she allowed us to have sex was on my birthday. Not my last birthday the one before. And it had been 10 months before that time.
My choice is masterbate or commit adultery. I committed to her for life, and even if she never wants to have sex again, I will remain true to my commitment to her.
I am the primary bread winner. I do most of the housework, most of the cooking, and most of the dishes. I do all the house repairs, painting, plumbing, yard work, snow shoveling ,auto repairs, etc.
I work hard at work, and then harder at home. Every day is work, and there is no fun, and no excitement and no passion. I hate weekends because there are so many more times where we could be having sex but we don’t. I have always dreamt of trying different positions and different places. Right now I’d settle for anywhere. I waited my whole single life to see a woman’s private area and I have not yet seen one in person. I know several doctors have seen this part of my wife.
She never wears sexy lingerie or does anything oral. I dream about having passionate sex with her every night. Every day without sex makes it increasingly harder to remain pure in thought during my day at work.
Had I known I would only have sex once a year… Or less… I would have remained single. I weep multiple times a day. I am depressed every day and she never asks what is wrong.
I can go online and see thousands of strangers up close showing their body parts off to total strangers… Yet my wife refuses me.
Every morning I get up and say to myself…maybe my wife will love me enough to be intimate with me.
I always open the car door for her. I buy her flowers for no reason. I vaccuum every other day. I make her breakfast every morning and lunch every day to take to work. For years I wrote love notes and put them in her lunch. But I stopped as it was not helping at all.
So, the reason I masterbate is to allow me to honour my wife by not having sex with others when she will not. I wish my wife would desire me sexually. I wish my wife would want to have sex with me. I wish my wife would let me touch her, see her, and love her. She tells me she loves me multiple times a day… But she never demonstrates it.
Sorry Brandon, but I’m afraid I’m going to have to give you the gift of rebuke this Christmas.
This statement: “My choice is masturbate or commit adultery” is just false. That’s like saying “Well, I have a problem with my friend, so my option is to beat him up, or kill him”. Why the extremes? How about the third options of dealing with the issue?
I believe your reason for masturbating is selfishness, and you’ve rationalized it into believing you masturbate “to allow me to honour my wife by not having sex with others when she will not.” I’d argue you are committing adultery by having a sexual relationship with your wife, even if its just with yourself. As well, allowing your marriage to continue to the way it is without trying to address it, is not honouring it. You are enabling your wife, and saying her sin makes allowances for yours. But that’s not how sin works. You don’t get a free pass, just because someone else sins. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
So, what can you do? Stop avoiding the issue and talk to your wife. Talk about:
There’s a good chance your wife also has a lot of pent up guilt over this. She probably knows, in some way, that this is hurting you, but it’s gone on so long, she can’t face it. So, I’d be willing to bet she’s miserable as well. But, you’re the man, so man up and deal with it.
There is a common phrase in Christianity: “God loves you the way you are, but too much to leave you that way.” You have to take the same approach. Be willing to love your wife the way things are, but unwilling to let her stay in her sin. Right now, you aren’t helping her by ignoring the issue. You’re just leaving her there to suffer, and leaving yourself to suffer at the same time.
I know it sounds harsh, but I say it in all love. With all sincerity: Merry Christmas. If you need help processing this, please, email me. I’m more than willing to talk. I’ve been where you are. My wife and I had a sexless marriage for years. It can change…but only if you put in the work.
I really appreciate this point of view. I do not think that married people should masturbate without their partner with them. Or rather, without their partner’s knowledge. I’m willing to admit that there are times when a couple is separated, say military deployments or long work trips, where the husband and wife need a release. In those cases, I think that you can spend time with each other on the phone or skype in a sexual way and masturbate. other than that, I think it is just like you said, focusing your sexual energies on yourself and not your partner.
Masturbation is natural, and it brings a different kind of satisfaction than partner sex. There is nothing wrong with it, as long as it is not a substitute for a lack of intimacy in a relationship. What is important is keeping the equipment healthy – men can use a penile health creme to alleviate the effects of chafing and irritation.
Obviously I disagree.
I for one find 95% of the responses here completely bizarre. My wife is the daughter of a Fundamentalist Baptist pastor. We met at the most conservative Christian college in America and have been married for 17 years. Both of us masturbate and we have a very healthy sex life. To be clear–she masturbates. There has been zero discussion in this thread about female masturbation.. Granted, men do it much more frequently than women–but the fact remains. I don’t know what she thinks about, and frankly I don’t care. What I care about is that we are both a lot more in tune with what we want to be satisfied. Sometimes I travel and am gone for a week or two. Do I masturbate? yes. Does she? Yes. So what? The truth is that orgasm does much more than release sperm. It releases dopamine. Men and women are not designed to go without release. The Bible is silent on the topic because everyone in the OT had multiple wives. Heck, David slept with young virgins into old age “to keep him warm” right. Are there porn addicts ruining their marriages through unrealistic fantacies? yes. Are there women ruining their marriages because they don’t provide a vibrant and interesting sex life for their husbands? Yes. But ignored here are HEALTHY relationships where a couple is comfortable with whatever brings the other pleasure. Frankly, I would be concerned if my wife did not masturbate. I feel sorry for people who think their sex life is something Jesus came to regulate.
Yeah, I find many Baptists have a hard time with this due to their doctrine of believing that the Bible has to explicitly spell something out to actually have a stance on it. The “If the Bible is silent, we are silent” policy freezes Christianity at the 1st Century and doesn’t allow for a living God, in my opinion. It rejects the very notion of the Holy Spirit working in people’s lives to inspire us.
So, that said, yes, this post, written back in 2012, isn’t very gender neutral, I agree. I have worked hard to become more gender neutral, when applicable, since then. I think the majority of it can be applied to both genders. In your case, I would say you both fall within the “ignorance” camp, which isn’t intended as a result, but you have no conviction about it, thus you are ignorant that it’s wrong. And I disagree that the Bible is silent on the topic. I address it more thoroughly in Is masturbation a sin?
As for David and his bad habits, that’s not really a good way to judge what is right or wrong, is it? After all, many of his behaviors were abhorrent. David should not be used as a good example of how to act, but rather as a good example of how to continuously turn back to God in repentance for our many sins.
And no, I don’t think Jesus came to “regulate” our sex life…I think he came to liberate it, to free it, and to give us the best possible sex lives, to be fully known by our spouse and to share our lives completely with them. Marriage is a living analogy of our relationship with God. God doesn’t want us to have a spiritual relationship with him, and then a separate one on our own. He’s a jealous God, and rightly so. We should be jealous spouses in the same sense. I’m sorry that you think having two distinct sex lives helps achieve that purpose (the one with your wife, and the one without).
Jay Dee you must talk to the wrong Baptists 😉 Us Aussie baptists are nothing like American Baptists at all. Don’t know much about other countries.
Oh, and I agree that orgasm does much more than just release sperm. Not only dopamine, but also oxytocin. That’s what makes it so dangerous in the wrong context. It’s highly addictive. You are teaching yourself to separate sex from your marriage…that sort of compartmentalization, I believe, is not healthy, nor safe.
“Oh, and I agree that orgasm does much more than just release sperm. Not only dopamine, but also oxytocin. That’s what makes it so dangerous in the wrong context. It’s highly addictive. You are teaching yourself to separate sex from your marriage”that sort of compartmentalization, I believe, is not healthy, nor safe.”
^^^ You could not have possibly said it any better. That is the reason masturbation is emotionally, mentally, and physically a SIN. It separates sex from marriage.
To all the men out there that want to blame their wives for reason they masturbate – here’s a question to you. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the reason your wife won’t have sex with you is BECAUSE you masturbate!!!!!! You husbands made a vow to God to ‘forsake all others’ and that includes yourself. The women I talk to don’t want to ‘compete’ with their husband’s hand.
To be extreme, I would say that casually masturbating (in the shower or in the bath or in bed) is no different than using the bathroom or getting a haircut. You are regulating the functions of your body which God gave you a right to. Men have wet dreams without ever touching themselves—whose fault is that? God grants a involuntary erection to every man under 65 every morning of his life? Is He just taunting us? No. It’s your body trying to function normally.To give it more meaning is to introduce guilt and thereby control over other people. To tell a woman not to masturbate is to tell her to learn everything about her own sex from one man–who likely knows very little. Really, to argue otherwise is to focus on controlling people in a way God did not intend as evidenced by the very design and function of human bodies.
what is NOT normal is hiding this behavior (or porn) from your spouse. That will seriously damage your relationship. But I do think many, many, many conservative Christian women marry men while having zero knowledge of male sexuality (or its demands). I know this because I married one. We were virgins, married at 22 while still attending Christian college. Her minister parents gave her zero sex education and neither did mine. There was no internet. The library had weird books from the 70’s Tim and Beverly Lehay had written a bizarre book with no pictures and porn was not the problem it is today. Our marriage almost broke up after 7 years. Despite giving me everything I wanted in bed, she was not interested in her own pleasure–she did not feel a right to it. Non-reciprocal sex was a huge turn off for me. Thank God, she discovered herself and learned about herself–something I am convinced could not have been achieved without healthy, private masturbation. She was not cheating on me, she was preparing herself for our time together–and sometimes reminiscing about good encounters. Have a healthy relationship first–then allow each other everything. Only if you are free can you choose each other freely.
Don’t justify masturbation by parents not doing their job at educating their kids and having a sex-positive attitude (within marriage of course). So, why couldn’t she have done this with you, instead of alone? There’s nothing to say she can’t explore, by why the secrecy, why the separation from you? Why decide to have a sex life that doesn’t include you?
Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m trying to say! Learn everything from/with your spouse!
Actually, I find your argument proves my point more so. God put systems in place that will regulate the need to ejaculate, if it is needed (many men never experience a wet dream). Why then do you feel the need to side step this? I think because it’s easier to reject self control, which, unfortunately, cheats you from much larger gains in life. The apostle Paul writes a lot about self control and the benefits one gets from practicing it. I think that can be applied to this. I encourage you to check our his writings.
Pete what’s wrong with her learning to explore herself with her husband? I did that with my first husband and loved it.
I find this blog very helpful and very positive. Everyone has their own opinions and everything like that so i do like to hear all sides as it is interesting to do so. I completely understand what you are saying. I have been married for 2 years and my wife has expressed her displeasure in it many times prior, but i have gotten the point. LOL. Now, i am never, nor have I wanted to or have cheated on my wife. I do not believe in that, nor do i play around with that, but i do agree with the dangers that masterbation does present in a relationship. My question to you is, 1. do you feel that god wipes the sins away once you repent from them on this issue and 2. you mentioned earlier that thinking about someone else while masterbating is cheating in gods eye, but do you think just being attracted to another person and or looking at someone in a way that you are attracted to them is the same thing in gods eye?
Another key reason men masterbate is because of the simple biological need to release. And yet another reason, and a bigger one that I’m surprised you didn’t mention, is fear.
I’m sure you can relate to the idea that you wouldn’t be able to share that release with your wife because, before you went to be naked as your policy, you surely had days when you thought, “Well, I’d better just vent this energy elsewhere, or it’ll start driving me crazy.”
We are beings designed for intimacy-for kind, loving verbal, physical, and sexual exchanges.
When we don’t regularly experience or feel we have access to these based on how we understand love and affection to be expressed and shared, we naturally look for a way to find the same biological comfort.
Furthermore, along these same lines, even within a healthy relationship, initiating sex is a thing of vulnerability… and sometimes, we are too afraid to do this.
So fear is a really big, top reason within almost any decision.
Really, if you think about it, there are always two motivations in any decision: what we fear and what we love. *Or who we fear and who we love.
And there’s generally a mix of both in every choice we make, if we’re honest.
Perhaps, this is one more reason why faith in a God who loves us all so deeply can be so empowering for us to love ourselves and each other better and more vulnerability.
After all, where God’s perfect love is, fear is cast out.
I’d argue that’s a catalyst, but not a need. The body will resolve the biological need without harming you or your relationship.
And yes, I can certainly relate to the idea. We just had a baby, and so we’re in that post-birth sexual haitus period. We went from 2-3 times a week to zero, instantly. Not going to say it’s not easy, but, I am on day…18 or so, without an orgasm, and I’m surviving.
And yes, I agree we were designed for intimacy, but masturbation does not create intimacy. Rather, it destroys, supplants or substitutes intimacy. Simple orgasm will not make you feel loved…just empty.
I get being too afraid to do initiate (and I’m going to be having a workshop teaching husbands how to initiate more effectively, let me know if you’re interested), but what that is saying is that you would rather hold on to your fear and masturbate, rather than address the fear and love your wife. Which, I’m going to classify as selfishness (one of my reasons).
And as you said, with God, you can overcome that fear.
Congrats Jay Dee and Mrs Jay Dee 🙂 Hope things get back to normal for you soon (as normal as they can be with a baby).
Thanks!
One more thought:
I think it’s unwise to place our opinions on what is right or wrong within another couple’s relationship.
I think it would be far more beneficial to encourage couples’ clear and vulnerable communication with each other so that, more importantly than following “rules” and “standards,” we are increasing our ability to become one with and more deeply loving and supportive to each other.
After all, sex was made for humans, not humans for sex. *Same as any other rule or tradition.
I think I’ve promoted communication a fair bit on this blog. But, that doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to share my opinion of what’s right and wrong. I know post-modern Christianity is trying to do away with “rules” and “standards” (and commandments), but I still think God’s laws are valid. In my opinion, this is a clear extrapolation of those laws we see in the Bible. You may disagree, go ahead. Do with it what you will.
As for sex was made for humans, not humans for sex, that doesn’t mean it can’t hurt us if we misuse it.
My husband has had this problem since I meet him. masturbating never getting enough sex. sometimes he would have sex 2 or 3 times a day with me. I had never known anything about sex before meeting him. so I didn’t know that this was a problem. but no after 38 years of marriage I’m tired of him betray me with porn and masturbation. when I quit having porn with him 10 years ago because I came to Christ and it felt dirty. that’s when he started masturbating more frequently. nothing is sacred in our home. he gets up in the middle of the night to masturbate. We no longer have cable. now he’s learned how to get on the internet and it’s disgusting what I found out. I feel as though he is having multiple affairs on me. That he justifies it because he isn’t literally with that woman just in his mind. but the Bible distinguise does that to last for another woman there’s a sin that is adultery. thank you for answering this question for me. do I have the right to divorce him over this porn problem. we have not had sexual relations in 6 months relations and 6 months. Thank you
The right to divorce, perhaps. But why not work through the problem instead? I’d much rather you see a pastor or a counselor than a lawyer.
Been staring at the comment box for about an hour, Now in my second marriage and finally in the Truth, I have gone through pretty much every scenario except death of a spouse or massive physical impairment. I do not believe masturbation by itself is sin. But it is a very dangerous, complex activity. I now consider it fornication if done without a non-abandoning spouse’s express approval for each occasion. I might be somewhat over-conservative with this one, but I also believe that masturbating while fantasizing about your spouse is fornication for simple reason you are probably fantasizing about things they are unwilling to do. Plus I am lazy. My secular job demands most of my creative faculties, so I prefer good, solid memories. Having fantastic sessions burned into your mind also make it easier to resist external temptation. I am now in favor of “pictorial assistance” from your spouse, of course when masturbation has been properly sanctioned, simply because research has shown we definitely do bond to our spouses when viewing pictures of them while exposed to the hormones of climax.
In cases of spousal abandonment, I believe the abandoning spouse has given up their claim on you, and masturbation is OK if you can limit it to occasional, non-erotic masturbation. You still are under the marriage bond, so you cannot fantasize/recall/view other partners/porn OR your spouse (they are not there to consent to the event). I could endorse the same view in cases of sexual denial, but I strongly recommend to just abstain in these cases because I have found it increases the incentive to fix the problem, as well as reduces anger and emotional pain.
My $0.02
This is the kind of nonsense my ex-wife used to manipulate and shame me because she refused to repent of her own contributions to our failed marriage. “Fantasizing about me while you masturbate is rape.” No, it’s not. Get over yourself.
Just because she was wrong doesn’t mean you were right…
So I’m the spouse that masturbates. To the erotic videos and pics that my husband gave to me of himself. He is the one I am turned on by. And he said if I’m thinking about him he is “ok” with it. I still feel shameful and have not always been honest on how often I do it. I don’t usually say no to sex either. So is it still wrong?
I think so, yeah. There is another post you may be interested in called Is Masturbation a Sin?
Not all my readers will agree with me though, so you’ll have to decide for yourself. But, I think that’s why you’re feeling shameful about it, and lying about how often. I think you know it’s wrong and that you feel convicted to change. But, that’s just my opinion.
This is such a great post. For all the guys who know its wrong and are struggling, take it from a guy who struggled with porn and masturbation for 28 years.
Before i got married i used to think that marriage would make the desire go away but i could not have been more wrong, it got hardee. After almost a decade into marriage I continued to struggled. There were times where I would go a month or two without looking at porn but only a couple weeks without masturbation but 95% of the time it was near daily.
Day after day I would cry out to God to be delivered. I tried to “just top”, oh did I try. I was in anguish and getting angry with Him because I felt like he wasn’t helping me even though I was crying out daily.
My wife knew something was up and she just asked me if I was looking at porn and I could not lie. It really strained our marriage. To my shame the porn and masturbation obviously made her less desirable to me. She knew my heart and my desire to quit but it still hurt her obviously. I downloaded Covenant Eyes and got a partner but I would find ways around it.
I became so depressed that I often thought about suicide. On top of this I would often catch myself staring at attractive women everywhere I went, even in church. I’m sure women were feeling creeped out.
10 months ago a friend who lives in Kansas City called me and told me about a book called “a covenant with my eyes” based on the verse in the book of Job. He said it was life changing for him. In the book the author talks about the fact that most God fearing men who, even though they love Jesus have not truly made a covenant with God not look lustfully at a woman.
He talked about the seriousness and gravity of making a covenant and talks about the possible ramifications of breaking a covenant with God.
My friend stressed that if I was serious about doing it that I should start off with making a 3 day covenant to test the waters then a week and so on before making a lifelong covenant. This covenant for me means that I do not linger and I absolutely do not intentionally look at anything that will stir up lust. If I see something unintentionally then I turn away immediately. Obviously no masturbation is part of the covenant because I would be thinking about another woman.
On day one I was completely blown away by the grace that was there to look away and no desire to masturbate or look at porn. After 3 days I tried a week then a month, then 6 months then finally lifelong.
After 3 months on the covenant I convinced myself that it would be okay to masturbate if I thought about my wife (apart from being with her). I quickly realized that my mind wanted to wonder to other women. Then I tried thinking about nothing at all, literally staring at the wall.
Even though I was able to continue doing this and literally think about nothing I knew deep down that this needed to stop because I was depriving me wife and any sexual activity was the wrong. It was selfish and lazy. I was afraid to make it a part of my covenant though so I tried to just stop. I kept giving in though, still thinking about nothing. After about a 6 weeks from when I started up the masturbation I made it a part of my covenant.
To somewhat of my surprise there was so much grace. The desire and the “need” to do it completely disappeared.
I’m not going to lie and say this whole thing has been easy, sometimes its hard. I still have an accountability program on my phone and computer. But the temptation for porn, list and masturbation is a very small fraction of what it used to be.
The wonderful thing is that my desire for my wife has exploded and we are like sex machines now. She enjoys and has a desire for more sex because she knows that my desire for her is so much greater. Obviously my heart and mind are free of the crap that got in the way.
I also have had so much grace to be in the Word daily now and actually enjoy it.
It’s between 10 months since I’ve entertained sexual thoughts about any woman except my wife and 6 months since I last masturbated when I made that part of my covenant.
There is absolutely no way that any of this would be possible but by the grace and kindness of God. There is no room for pride after struggling for almost 3 decades with no success.
The best part about all this is that you don’t realize how clouded your mind has become to who God is until you get the crap out. My understanding and acceptance of His love that has been there the whole time has finally come in line with the truth.
I’ll finish by saying that I don’t think there is power in the book I mentioned. It just brings to light the power in the scripture when you sincerely apply it.
I still don’t understand it all. All I know that as time goes on the fear of the LORD grows stronger and stronger and even the temptation of breaking the covenant grows weaker and weaker.
I don’t know why exactly this worked and other efforts seemed not to. But I do know that He heard and valued every single cry and prayer and they meant something to Him.
If you are struggling don’t give up, keeping fighting. He loves you and intimately knows your every struggle.
If have quit fighting then I plead with you to take up the fight again.
I realize this comment will probably never make it to your comments section, but even if you alone read my response to what you have written here, that to me is enough.
I realize that you love the Lord, just as I do. We both want to live our lives by his Word. But I must call you out on your unbiblical statement:
“100% of your sexual energy should be devoted to your spouse. That means when you are unmarried, you are not expending sexual energy. Otherwise, by doing so, you are cheating on your future spouse. We call this fornication. When you are married, you focus all your energy on your spouse. If you don’t, we call this adultery.” – There is not a shred of Biblical support for such a statement. Yes physical sexuality, sexual touch as well as interactive sex(web cam, phone sex) is all reserved for marriage.
But mere “sexual energy”, sexual arousal? sexual thoughts? Not covetous thoughts, but just sexual thoughts?
If you actually want to have your beliefs challenged then I invite you to read my reply to your post:
http://thegiftofsex.com/2015/05/12/why-do-married-men-masturbate/
(Not to my readers: this page is clean, but other pages on his site contain images of nudity and graphic illustrations depicting sexual acts that I would label as porn.)
If what you believe is true, then it will stand any test, but if it is not, it will fall.
May the Lord guide you.
Your brother in Christ,
Larry
I post just about every comment as one of the purposes of this blog is to foster discussion.
And I understand why you think it’s unbiblical, but as I said earlier, you missed the point. You’re still missing the point. You read the words, but failed to understand. You’re approach is too legalistic. You’re looking for a list of sins, things you “can’t do” so that you can be righteous. But, that’s not how Christianity works. The Bible isn’t a list of things we can’t do…it’s trying to show us a better way. As you quoted Romans, the law shows your sin. It shows you there is a better way, but the law doesn’t show you the right way. Christ does. That’s why you can’t be saved merely by works.
I haven’t finished your post yet (it’s fairly lengthy), but what I did read dismayed me. You took my words, but lost the heart of it. I’m sorry that people will likely be led astray by it. But, such is the nature of free will. It’s not my job to convict, merely to offer the choice.
Challenge accepted. If you want a test, try stopping. Stop looking at nude photos for your sexual enjoyment. Stop watching the porn that you are condoning. Focus all your sexual energy on your spouse. Test it and see if it stands up. I’ve tried your way, and it failed. I look forward to hearing your results.
I went to your blog and read it and while I felt you had some good points, I even went to that “Christian” porn site to see what what the difference was between “Christian” porn and regular porn. The first picture that popped up had me running for the “close” button as it looked like something out of a Larry Flint magazine. May I remind you that Ham was cursed in the Bible (and his descendants after him) just because he viewed his father naked? Levitical law is very straightforward about viewing another’s nakedness unless it is your spouse’s. It is strictly forbidden for a reason. My husband and I used to view it when we were first married and also beforehand. I was addicted to it for many years. Those images cannot be erased, only eroded after a time…..thank GOD! I would hate to know that my husband was having sex with me while images of another woman with her legs spread was circling in his mind. The same goes for me. I would feel nothing but shame if I could still recall images of someone else’s erection while having sex with my husband. Thank God I can no longer do that. Porn is the devil’s way of disrupting a marriage. It causes us to compare our spouse with others. It causes us to compare a future spouse with others. It is an abomination pure and simple….and before you call me a prude, know this: I used to strip before marriage and prior to being saved so I am no prude. The marriage bed is a type and shadow of Christ and His bride. Thinking about all kinds of women sexually is like thinking about all kinds of gods worshipfully. It’s idolatry. I really expected the pictures on that “Christian” porn site to be nudes, which would still have been unacceptable but to find that they were “Hustler” type porn was beyond the pale. You sir, are kidding yourself to justify your own sin. Masturbation is one thing, porn is a completely different animal.
Um, hello? Men want to be off, fighting wars, exploring the world (or space), building machinery, competing at sports, you know, all that stuff. So God gave him a physical, biological need for a woman, in order for him to be a family man, husband and father. This is a biological need!! Need arises as semen increases. At a certain point, the semen needs to be released. If it is not, it is very uncomfortable for him, and his mind constantly turns to sex. So how can he release it? Masturbation, the sex act, or by wet dreams.
Now when a youth starts producing semen, he usually isn’t already married, so the sex act isn’t available. Wet dreams are not a nice option. The man is likely to have lurid dreams, which can get pretty weird, and which he can’t direct or control (unlike woken fantasies). He sleeps very restlessly, and it ends when he wakes and finds himself unpleasantly covered in semen. We don’t like that much. Which leaves us only with masturbation.
The Bible says “if a man burns, let him marry”, but our society doesn’t permit that. The boy might need sex when he’s 14, but most don’t marry until they’re like 30. He reaches his sexual peak when he’s 18 or 19, but not allowed legitimate sex until he’s 30. These figures just do not work. No man can live through his sexual peak, through possibly 16 years when he needs sexual release but is not allowed to have it.
I’m sorry, but unless we change our attitudes towards when people can marry, every man is going to have to masturbate for years (or have a lot of premarital sex). And once it is a learned behaviour, he is not going to be able to stop just because he get’s married. Even though married, sex is not always available when he needs it, and some women want a lot of drama before they’ll consent to meeting their husband’s needs.
Marriage is God’s only provision for man’s sexual need, and he needs to be able to marry when he develops sexual need. Otherwise, its all pie in the sky. Certainly, God intended us to marry young (and finish our growing up together with our life partner). How many times does God mention “the wife of your youth” in the Old Testament?
I can only conclude that masturbation is the “safety valve” God gave us to release semen, get our minds off sex and back onto the matters of life, until we are able to marry.
And people should marry young. Weddings should be lovely family occasions, a pretty dress and a nice meal, that are easily affordable. So many young Christian people are being sexually active before marriage because they can’t afford the wedding they want or think they have to have and they have sexual needs that won’t be denied. A return to common-sense would be good.
As you said, the Bible says “if a man burns, let him marry”, how then does one change that into “if a man burns, let him masturbate?” Also, why is it that masturbation is the safety valve, and not wet dreams. Seems to be the unconscious method would be the best “safety valve”.
Just because people won’t change their attitudes towards marriage, it doesn’t mean God gives permission to stray from His intent. As you said “Marriage is God’s only provision for man’s sexual need”, masturbation seeks to replace that provision, thereby defying God.
Unfortunately a “pretty dress” and a “nice meal” aren’t that cheap these days. I imported my wedding dress from China from a dodgy ebay person, and it still cost $200. To buy even a simple white dress in my size from a department store locally would have cost that much or more. And while I’d have loved to do what a good friend of mine did – just say instead of gifts, everyone choose their own meal and pay for it themselves – our families refused to allow it. My parents saying they wouldn’t attend and would stop the rest of my family attending (and they would have) and my husband’s parents saying they would come but it was the height of rudeness and that most of their family (including his grandparents who he adores) would refuse to come. My husband has a massive family (he’s one of six kids and his parents both have more siblings than that each) all of which he is very close to, so we couldn’t just have a small wedding without hurting my future in laws or hurting hubby’s feelings (plus I really do love my husband’s extended family and wanted them there) so in the end, even though we went with a very simple meal at the absolute cheapest place we could find (and didn’t provide alcohol for guests), the reception still ended up hugely expensive just for a cheap meal and soft drinks.
We were the exception about putting a wedding off until we could save up more money for it – we were in the situation where we were in a long distance relationship and the longer we were apart, the more money we were losing (hubby losing savings, me getting into debt) because of the cost involved of having two different households in two different states and the cost of trying to see each other at least 4 times a year in person (we lived in one of the most expensive routes to fly in Australia and driving the distance is even more expensive for one person). So we were trying to get married as soon as possible to save money, however we were very limited by when we could get married as I needed to finish my studies (because I couldn’t transfer my course to where hubby’s job was and he didn’t want me to throw away 8 years of hard work studying and end up unemployable because we couldn’t wait an extra year to get married) and also because I have a child from my first marriage and have custody issues with her father and had a court order that at the time prevented me from moving (I had to go through the motions of waiting certain lengths of time etc to have her considered “abandoned”) and also we decided it was best for her if we waited until the end of the school year to cause the least disruption (as she has autism and has problems with adjusting to major changes).
So for us, all we could afford was a “Cheap” wedding – the problem is, if you want all the family you love there at your wedding and you come from a big family and your family are the traditional “it’s rude to ask guests to pay for a meal instead of a gift”, a “cheap” wedding is still quite costly. To put into perspective – we had 100 guests (the majority of them family, with a few good church friends there as well) and everything for the wedding cost around $8000. And it was only that amount because I scrimped on everything possible – stayed up literally all the night before the wedding making things that most people would normally buy to save money. Had been getting about two hours sleep every night for more than a week before that trying to do stuff. Never been more sleep deprived in my entire life (nearly threw up on the photographer due to tiredness).
Even the simple church ceremony cost over $1000 with all the costs involved – and that’s purely for ceremony/church/minister fees etc, not the dress, suits, flowers, etc.
I don’t think the issue is young couples having too expensive ideals about what they want in a wedding – I think the real issue is that churches need to get on board with young couples and help them to afford a wedding. Not pay for it, but do what the church I married my first husband in did for us. The minister married us for free, the church and hall were by donation, the church had a catering committee which catered food at cost price (Two course meal and punch was $15 a head, an afternoon tea menu was even less), people from the church volunteered to be waiters (I did that a few times myself for church events myself when I was younger), a lovely lady who ran a florist business did the flowers at a discounted rate, two of the older gentlemen in the church drove us in their cars (the exact cars I wanted too 🙂 ). I had the wedding of my dreams with 80 guests for under $3000 – and that included the honeymoon too.
It wasn’t a matter of giving money – it was the people in the church being willing to give young couples their time and effort to get a good start to their married life with an affordable wedding that was both cheap and beautiful.
I guess what I’m saying is perhaps the problem isn’t young couples’ apparent greed for a fancy wedding, but rather the lack of support from churches to give couples a simple but beautiful wedding. And honestly, it’s not even about the money it saves – what I remember about my first wedding is the wonderful people who donated their time and their love and support to us on our wedding day. That alone would help young couples in their marriage and their walk with God to know they had their church behind them.
I can be done. We had a very cheap wedding. Church was free, because we were members, and I don’t think we paid the pastor. I know in my current denomination, the pastors won’t accept pay.
We asked people to help prepare food, and they were happy to. We had a very simple reception outside in a park. We didn’t have alcohol at our wedding, because the park forbid it.
My wife bought her dress in a pawn shop, my suit was rented, and my groomsmen wore anything black.
Weddings don’t need to be this extravagant production. We got married. Mission accomplished.
Jay you’ve brought up a few problems we had. My husband’s church was in another state, my church didn’t have a church building. To hire a church meant having someone their church approved of – I wanted my cousin’s husband but he was already officiating another wedding that day so we had to go with the minister of the church we hired. Hubby bought a special suit, but even though the wedding was the reason for it, he bought one he’d been wanting for years and will get a lot of use from it – our groomsmen bought cheap suits that were actually cheaper than renting. Same at my first wedding – it’s absolutely crazy that it’s cheaper to buy suits than rent them!
I’d have been happy for ask people to bring food etc, but again, that was on the “no-no” from family list. At least our reception venue itself was free with the food. We were actually the first wedding they’d hosted as they’d never considered doing weddings before – it was a cheap buffet restaurant and it worked really well. I tried buying my dress second hand, but in all the shops, online, etc, it actually worked out cheaper to buy one off ebay new, custom fitted. The only danger in doing it that way is you can never be quite sure if you’ll get what you asked for as I’ve met other brides who did the same from other ebay sellers and their dress was nothing like what it was supposed to be. But I was very lucky. Only one part of my dress wasn’t the size it was supposed to be and my mother in law was able to adjust it.
But yeah… we did get a lot of our stuff new, but online where it was cheaper to buy new than to buy second hand.
I do agree that when people were allowed and able to marry young, it solved a lot of problems. People were more mature back in the day when they married young. In the earliest days, a boy of 13 would have an education equivalent to a 4 year college degree and would then apprentice for 4 or more years. He would marry at 17 or 18 typically to a girl of 14 or 15. This alleviated a lot of the problems we see in society today. Today kids mature much later because they don’t have the responsibility or hardships kids had then. We have all been rather spoiled growing up when compared to those raised 200 years ago in this country. Kids then were much more disciplined intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually and didn’t have sexual imagery popping up around every corner. I am not trying to make excuses here but I do agree that it is far harder now to stay sexually pure than it was then. I feel sorry for people trying to raise moral kids in society today. It’s difficult when you have Christ, and when you don’t, it’s impossible.
I don’t even know what to say… I cringe at the bondage you are putting people in with mB is adultery etc. Masturbation is a gift from God like food. Yes it can be done for the wrong reasons and in the wrong way however it can prevent a lot of temptation and bondage and affairs in some situations. I could go on and on and attempt to defend my position but I won’t I have things to do and found myself getting more frustrated reading this blog. I repeat YES and OF COURSE it can be done for the wrong reasons and in the wrong ways :adulterous (porn, the neighbors wife/husband etc) and manipulative and selfish ways but that is like most things in life and should be addressed.
Something you did not mention in the article, although it may have been covered in the comments, is it maybe the only sexual outlet when the husband is in a sexless marriage because of his wife’s refusal of all sexual advances. I know one sin does not justify another but it is what my case is. I’m in counseling at present to try to end the stalemate but my wife refuses to attend this as well.
It was discussed. I’d argue thats not a core reason. Even in a sexless marriage, men can resist the temptation. Though it is harder. Therefore it is a catalyst, not a reason.
I like the spirit of your excursions into Biblical views on sex, and I too have been called to use logic and reason when looking for God’s truth.
One thing that I see all too often though, is a liberal reading on the verse concerning lust as equal to adultery. Depending on how you read the verse, it condemns everything from masturbation to sexually desiring your own wife! So I think it is important to come to an understanding on this one point: Did Jesus add to the Mosaic law by making anger the same as murder, and lust the same as adultery?
Matthew 5:27-28 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
I would say that because Jesus came to fulfill the law (give greater meaning to), he could possibly have done just this. Earlier, Jesus said that anger puts you in danger of hell! But he also said be angry and sin not…
This is important, because if you look at the structure of the verses on anger and murder in the sermon on the mount, it follows the exact same outline as his words on lust and adultery. So it would follow that we should interpret these verses the same way.
Matthew 5:21-22 NIV
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘ Raca ,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Many people interpret this as Jesus equaling anger to murder, but how can He be saying that, when He also says be angry and sin not? I think, then, that a better understanding would be that Jesus is simply saying that the more angry you get at your brother, the closer you are to murder and a one way ticket to hell IF you actually commit the murder physically. So the root problem with murder is that there is increasing anger *in the heart.* Anger is a temptation, and temptation cannot be sin, because Jesus was tempted and sinned not.
Our thoughts and desires can tempt us. The devil can tempt us. But nothing is a sin until you make a decision to act on something and then you do that action. Sin is a choice, and to equate anger with sin is tantamount to saying that Jesus sinned in the Temple court. Jesus was simply saying that the root problem of murder is anger: deal with what’s in the heart, and the sin isn’t an issue anymore.
We should read the verse on lust and adultery the same way.
If anyone looks on a woman (a wife that is not his) with lustful intent (with a temptation to have sex with her), he has already committed adultery with her in his heart (the temptation for adultery is festering in his heart).
Jesus is not adding to the Mosaic law by equating lust with adultery. He is simply saying the common sense logic that if you don’t want to commit adultery, don’t allow for the temptation to stay in your mind! Cut out the eye that offends thee. He is getting to the root cause of adultery, and that is wrongful sexual desire. Notice how he never called anyone out for thinking lustful thoughts around him and told them to repent: no, he WARNS them with this verse, and he only asks people to repent who have ACTUALLY committed adultery!
So, all that is just to say that I disagree with those who condemn masturbation or even sexual desire as SINFUL. Yes, get rid of temptation, but to say that a passing thought for another woman that I IMMEDIATELY dismiss is a sin is a stretch. I have passing thoughts for a LOT of bad things, like lying, but the biblical response is to deny these thoughts. To say that temptations are sin is a stretch in my opinion, and it means that the devil can CAUSE people to sin.
Would the God who led no one to write about masturbation and allowed for it to be physically possible (as opposed to something that is IMPOSSIBLE like tickling yourself) then condemn the practice as sin? Or was He, in His great wisdom, giving celibate people an escape from temptation for all the years when they wouldn’t have a spouse?
As far as pornography goes, all I know is that it’s been around for about as long as the invention of paint (cave paintings of fertility rituals), and God never led anyone to write on that subject either. I can’t say it’s acceptable in all situations, or that all pornography is good, but I think it would be equally spurious to say that it is always a sin.
If you consider that Jesus was speaking of not lusting after other wives who lived nearby for fear that you might ACTUALLY have sex with them, can it be said that pornography is on the same level? I don’t know that anyone ever has sex with the women they see in pornography, and so I have a hard time believing that everyone is truly committing adultery in their heart, because in their heart they know they will never have physical sex with them! And you cannot commit a sin without actually committing the action involved.
Conclusion: these are murky waters, and everyone should be prayerful and should act according to their faith of what is truth. I just submit these thoughts so that others might consider them for themselves.
I think the bible makes it pretty clear that encouraging others to sin is no better than committing the sin oneself. Those who watch porn videos for example are providing the encouragement for the makers of porn to continue making it and therefore are active participants in the porn getting made.
Just as hiring a hitman to kill someone is considered murder, paying to see porn (whether paying directly with money or indirectly with advertising), you are paying someone else to commit adultery and are therefore an active participant in it.
And ultimately, lust is still a sin itself. It may not necessarily lead to adultery, but lust is still a sin.
You point out that temptation is not a sin, but there is a huge difference between a fleeting thought and a deliberate decision to linger on a thought. A fleeting thought is temptation, choosing to dwell on a thought is sin.
When you look at porn and then masturbate, you are not just reviewing that picture in your mind, you are imagining things like orally stimulating her or having intercourse with her, you are imagining the sights, smells, sounds, and tastes of having sex with her. Anyone who says they don’t do that isn’t being honest. So yes, you are HAVING sex with her in your mind and in your heart and YES, it’s a sin because it’s fornication….in YOUR HEART. I cannot understand how people can read the Bible and not understand that it is the heart that Christ is concerned with, more than the outward activity. You can have a lustful thought and then excuse it ( a bird can land on your head but you don’t have to let her make a nest in your hair) but to have a lustful thought about a person you are not married to and then to carry that on until you are having sex with her in your heart IS sin. Jesus called out the Pharisees for this very reason. They weren’t “actually” murdering anyone or having sex with other men’s wives, or openly coveting, etc. They were doing those things in their hearts and Jesus said they were whitewashed tombs full of dead man’s bones….shiny on the outside and filthy on the inside. It is hard for me to believe there are people who still think that sin is only sin when it is in action and not thought. Jesus spoke of a man who had no guile in his “heart.” He didn’t say “oh how wonderful, you have lots of evil thoughts that you dwell on but you’ve never acted on them so you are without sin.”
You don’t have to have porn to masturbate and while I might agree that masturbation done occasionally to relieve sexual pressure is not wrong, I also believe it can easily become addictive and that is the danger. Some men have physical problems if they don’t ejaculate for long periods of time. My husband used to get small, lumps in his testicles when he had gone too long without sex . He would then start to have sharp pain in his testicles, especially in the early mornings. Fortunately, there were other ways I could relieve him besides intercourse ( I used to battle with endometriosis so intercourse wasn’t always an option). I know there must be other men with the same problem so I don’t agree that masturbation is always wrong. I do think that there is a physical need for it at times and it can stave off committing fornication, but this wandering into the world of porn and feeding the desire to do it more often than is physically necessary or using it as an aid is where I have a problem.
When Jesus addressed the problem of anger it was of two different types. “Be angry but do not sin” meant, “I understand you are emotional creatures and cannot always keep an emotion from rising up but do not dwell on it, feed it, or act on it. Don’t say anything you will regret. Calm down as quickly as possible” Clearly, a man who IS angry with his brother has been angry for a time since the Bible instructs him to “go” to his brother and settle the matter. He has dwelt on it, he has rehearsed scenarios, he has thought about what he should have said or done or what he’d like to say or do. The same goes for not letting the sun go down on your anger. There is the emotion of anger which quickly rises up and then there is the sin of anger which is when we have let our anger grow. I am afraid you are dwelling too much on semantics and not enough on the deeper meaning of Scripture.
Also, I see a lot of comments dealing with the inadequacies of how we treat marriage today. Namely, that people hit their sexual peak young, but can’t marry until they are late 20s. I agree that this is a problem.
I think one of the biggest problems is that we have allowed a relatively new idea to put scales over our eyes when reading the bible. That problem is the idea that a wedding can make you married. Tell me where in the Bible are the instructions for a wedding, or what vows to say, or even a simple recommendation to have a wedding in the first place? The Bible says this about marriage: that a man should leave his father and mother, he should cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. And that’s it, beyond how to care for your spouse. There is no other requirement, and for the church to place extra requirements (like a wedding or rings or a pastor or even financial stability) may be out of good intentions, but it is like the Pharisees trying to be so righteous that they make it hard to be a Jew.
Even further than this, I would say that because of what Jesus had to say on marriage, that there is no such thing as premarital sex either, and that ALL sex carries the implicit agreement for commitment.
So, they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore *God* has put together, let not man separate.
What makes two people one flesh? Sexual intercourse. This happens even with prostitute, as Paul says. Who puts the two together into one flesh? God. Who shouldn’t separate them? Anyone. All sex, therefore, implies a marriage commitment.
So if all sex makes you married, then prostitution is adultery. Multiple one night stands are adultery. Premarital sex is marriage, unless you have more than one sex partner, and then it is adultery for the girl, polygamy for the man.
So if two committed people want to have sex in a marriage relationship, who is the Church to stand in the way of what God has said about marriage and require a wedding ceremony? Do we not age whether we celebrate our birthday or not? Do we have to have a birthday party to turn a year older? In the same way, a wedding is just a symbol of the relationship and sexual union of two people. It does not cause you to be married.
Can I find another reason? Seriously? How’s this… A wife with the sex drive of a mourning dove. As one who reluctantly lives in a totally sexless marriage of 15 years what else am I suppose to do? We as men need that physical release. Without it we’re miserable.
A catalyst, not a reason, as I’ve explained above. Deal with the real issue, your marriage. Don’t hide from the conflict, address it. If you need help, see Matthew 18:15-17. You don’t need physical release, you need to start holding your wife accountable to her vows, with the help of the church if need be. Sex is a need for the relationship, and your both guilty of not honoring that. Her by her refusal, you by seeking sexual gratification elsewhere.
I did. I insisted on taking my wife with me to professional Christian counseling. The counselor, after three months, took her side and said that many marriages are sexless. (She is blessed with perfect health). My wife stopped going to church with me about a year after we were married and now does not go to any church. She totally and completely deprives me with no sex at all. My pastor said that I have Biblical grounds for divorce. I love her and want to be married to her for the rest of our lives. The only thing I can think of doing is waiting for her to join a church and then presenting my problem to the pastor of her church and hope that the church will take discipline (Matthew 18) to impress her to go to counseling for her sin of sexual aversion to her husband (me). We have been married four years and were chaste prior to marriage. This aversion started the first day we were married, it has always been a problem in our marriage. To make it worse, I have a high sex drive. Have confronted her on this many times and she rejects every effort that I have made for sex. Have been doing everything BUT hiding from our problem. I waited over a year, during our engagement and now she makes me wait longer, until she finds a church. Lord Jesus, have mercy on me!
I think that it is one of those things we all do but like other bodily functions we should show courtesy and discretion. If men feel the need they should at least do so discreetly so as not to give offense.
Sometimes men simply need to relieve themselves in this manner and wives take it as a rebuke on their adequacy, or their desirability, and no amount of explanation will change those feelings. Women are not men, they never have been men, they never will be men and never can be just as men never can be, will be, can be or have been women, and so many aspects of female anatomy and physiology will always be alien to men on the physical level even though they can read all the books and talk to women about their experiences in that regard. If a husband is going to do this, he should arrange it so that his wife, or anyone else is not confronted by it. That is not deceit or dishonesty, it is courtesy.
In my experience, being sexually active or not has had no effect one way or the other on the urge to do this.
housewife :
am not comfortable talking about this with you hence I thought i will mail it, You think something is wrong with me and i am have too many
issues , well yes and its not entirely my fault.
Yes i know what you have been masturbating all along in our marriage, but its not affected me all these years as it has now, nothing is wrong with me all of sudden as you say it, its been gradually happening to me, If i don’t tell you now, i know for a fact i will be devastated.
I’m so hurt that that the effects are deep into my core.I feel inadequate and second best, which breaks my spirit and leaves me feeling rejected. 🙁
and my heart was just broken because I didn’t understand why he would do that instead of having sex with me, when
I was always available to him and desperately wanted to be held in your arms again.
I know you wait for me to go and sleep and then turn on the laptop and do it, I have so many times cried to sleep, knowing
you are doing it and i am very much awake.I came thrice last night to stop you from having orgasm, this is how miserable our lives are getting day by day .
This is not just about our sex life; it is about our marriage.
Once you start doing it yourself, it is easy to meet more and more of your sexual needs this way. Masturbation is tempting because there is no risk of being told no.
You can have it whenever you want, you choose what to do, and
you do not have to worry about getting her aroused or to climax.
I have started feeling feel old, unattractive and sexually undesirable, its affecting me in a lot of ways. I know i get tired more often and fall asleep but yes i like to fell closeness to you as much as you need, i cant get it from anywhere else other than you.
I even told you i am feeling all different to let you know i would love to have sex with you but even after that i know you did the same thing.
may be its no big deal to you and i am blowing this out of proportion, but its affecting me very much. and it is affecting our marriage.
im not sad all the time for no reason, i have enough reasons to be upset. please give this a thought .
Husband :
agree on what u have said
Thanks for sharing this with me
Will do what ever possible to make you happy & ensure our family is happy always.
I promise will not mastrubrate hence forth.
wife:
Its not just about that, its the way things can change between us. I go to sleep every night thinking now he will do it, when i have sex with you i feel he is too tired doing it himself so he wants me.
evry singke thing i have second thoughts now.
husband:
What has happened has happened. As I promised Will stop it henceforth
wife:
ok
First of all, women masturbate too. It is sexist to complete ignore that fact.
There is a logical fallacy in your original premise. If masturbating before you are married is cheating on your future spouse, when you don’t know who that will be or more to the point, that s/he even exists, then remarriage as a widow/er and having sex with your new spouse is also cheating/adultery.
I don’t believe said women don’t, nor did I ignore the fact. Rather, I was asked a question about married men, and I answered it.
As for the supposed logical fallacy, not so. There is still the same assumption in either scenario: that your future spouse has not had sex outside of marriage.
There are so many issues that people blindly brush over. First it is well known statistic that around 95% of males masturbate. Second over half the ministers masturbate knowing it is contrary to Biblical teachings. Third women have this issue. None of this is Biblical or Correct according to christian society.
The real issue is that I doubt any christian wants to be addicted to porn or masturbation. They pray their heart out to God to fix it. But the problem still stands. Masturbating pastors hypocritically tell people seeking help that God will help them with this struggle. (Helping meaning allowing practically everyone with sex dive to masturbate. according to the numbers on this sight and other surveys). These are the facts.
The Issue stemming from this is that women masturbate too and most guys probably would not be disturbed or, according to a few quick poll searches, would actually enjoy watch females masturbate. While women are sometimes willing to divorce their husband over this issue.
They say ask Christians should go to Jesus or ask God. But the majority of faithful masturbating Christians are and he is not helping them. (Even if you say he is the numbers don’t lie the practically all praying Christians are still masturbating and will until they get old)
Men are pretty much ALWAYS discussed in regards to masturbation in a very negative way. This is too bad
as Christianity’s teaching that SEX IS BAD has caused huge relationship problems for Christians, both male and female. This IS NOT just a male issue. It is an issue “of not coming together” sexually as the Bible warns both genders.
It is THE ISSUE of “refusers”, male and female and ultimately leads to masturbation, pornography, affairs and divorces. we SKATE THAT ISSUE and just basically attack men as lust-craved demons. That is very sad. Until we address the truth—these things will continue.
I didn’t say it was only a male issue. But this post was in response to a specific question I was asked during a teleconference: Why do married men masturbate?
And yes, refusing is a serious issue, but one sin does not negate another, nor make it acceptable. You can’t blame it on the other spouse just because it makes it harder to do what is right.
As for attacking men as lust-craved demons…well, I suggest you read some other posts on this site. You’ll find that’s not the case here.
Jay, I was NOT making a comment that YOU say masturbation is a male issue. I said that masturbation is pretty much always discussed in regard to the male gender. I still believe that is true from all my reading. And, I have not been on your blog long so there are many many comments I have not yet had time to read. So, it is not personal. It is just my opinion that the finger of “masturbation is bad” is certainly more often pointed at the men. I think your blog is great. It encourages much needed thought among Christians about sexual intimacy. I am a Christian who does not believe masturbation is a sin. I am also a Christian who believes that there are reasons nasturbation is resorted to, which I thought was the question? If that is the question then there are certainly reasons which are not attached to pornography addiction. But, a reading of many blogs DOES at least GIVE THE IMPRESSION that pornography addiction IS the cause. The cause for both Christian men and women can many times be very infrequent sex at home. Masturbation is utilized in place of affairs. That can’t be bad in the final analysis. Thanks for listening. Great information here. JR
Understood. This is one of my earlier posts. My later posts are far more gender neutral.
But, I disagree that masturbation is okay because it’s a lesser evil than adultery, as if that is the only alternative. The Bible does not teach short cuts or lesser evils. It teaches self control, restraint, learning to be content, whatever our circumstances, it teaches building character and overcoming temptation. What you are suggesting is giving up on all that because it’s easier to masturbate. Easier just to handle things yourself rather than let Christ live in you. Easier to run away from the problem than work on your marriage or yourself.
That’s how I see it anyways.
Jay.
On this subject. ( i know this is an old post, but never the less)
I have had big struggles with this and was torn apart by this. Out of the starting blocks I would like to say, I’m of the opinion that self masturbation is unexceptionable.
That being said, I have done this many times, and at time with porn use, without my wife knowing about it. Now, with or without porn, it always, always left me at the least hating myself. Because I knew I was hurting my wife (that i love beyond words and life it self) even if she did not know, and also because I was sinning against the covenant between God, my wife and me.
I can however now say that I have turned away from self masturbation, and also have not seen or watched porn for a long time now. My wife and I have also talked about it, all of it. And she has forgiven me for this. I am still working on forgiving myself, but that’s another story all on it’s own. But it is still something that is an issue for me, to stay away from it, it’s an on going struggle to keep away.
Anyway. back to the reason for this comment / question….
My wife is currently not very sexual. We use to be very sexually active with everything on the table. (very little in the “not allowed box”). And I have grown use to the high volume and verity we had. We used to have intimate times between 3 up to 7 times a week. We are not growing apart, it’s dew to our pregnancy taking its toll. Please, I’m not in-considerate, I know she can’t control what’s happening. But I’m still the same man, with the same high sex drive. I know after some time, her sex drive will come back to normal, but in the mean time, weeks on weeks are still to come before “normality” will return.
Now, I am trying my best to stay pure, not to slip and return to old habits and sin. My wife does NOT like the idea of me masturbating with her in the room, but she also does not want to have as much sex as I do. Now, I will NOT under any circumstances entertain even the idea of porn or self masturbation, so that’s no option. But I’m still left with the high sex drive that won’t just go away…………
I know, there is no answer on the obvious question, what can or should I do…? I have spoken with my wife about this, and she does understand my needs. She is not heartless. But by the time we get to bed with all the house stuff is done and ours son is in bed, she is dead tired, that’s with me helping where i can. So that leaves her very tired, and the last thing on her mind is sex.
So, I’m basically at a point of, stick it out and hope I don’t go insane……..
I would just like to have some kind of input on your opinion on this.
What if you let some of the “house stuff” slide once in a while so she’s not dead tired when you go to bed?
Your turn number 4 should read, “Your wife does not put any effort to not maintaining a healthy sex life”.
Been married for almost 10 years, and have had limited sex over that time period. I am often stressed, disturbed, and flat out feel I’ve been cheated at times. I love her and my kids! I’m tired of talking about this with her…if your spouse won’t cooperate, but what do you do?
No, I don’t believe it should. That is a catalyst, not a reason. You cannot blame your actions on someone else’s behaviors, even your wife’s.
What do you do? What does Matthew 18:15-17 tell you?
I’m not sure what to think about my husband’s masturbation. We have sex very frequently, 5-10 times per week, and I never refuse him. Yet he still masturbates, sometimes just hours after we just had sex and he reached climax/ejaculated. Does he just have a unusually strong need for this release? or is it an addiction?
Well, no one has a NEED for release unless it’s an addiction. But, he may just have a very strong preference for it. If he can’t go without it, then I think there’s a red flag there.
What is the red flag? What should I be concerned about that I may be missing? Are there other things I should be looking for? Thanks for responding. I don’t want to start a big fight about this unless there’s really a problem…
I’m saying if he really can’t go without an orgasm just hours after you have sex, then I think that’s a potential issue. If he can’t go on with regular life without masturbating or sex, that’s a serious problem. That’s where it starts getting into the realm of sexual addiction and you need a therapist to get involved.
But if he can, but just prefers not to, well, it might not be an addiction. The way to tell is to try and stop 🙂
one of the reason men masturbates is that they are not satisfied with their wives. Wives refuses to have sex with their husbands and if the husbands has high sex drives what can he do? of course to something with their urge..
Yes, he can learn self control, and can get them into some marriage counseling to start. But masturbation is not a solution, it’s an escape, a way to circumvent your marriage. In short, it’s cheating.
God will continue to give you more wisdom and knowledge because this blog is a blessing to many marriage.
I have very strong sex drive and my is very lazy. she complain alot when it is time for sex. What can i do? Since wen i gave my life to Jesus Christ i had stop anything that will make me sin. Any solution?
Talk about it. Share what sex means to you, ask her what it means to her. Find out why she complains, why she’s reluctant. That’s a start anyways.
I dont think you answered the question. Why does anyone masturbate? Is it for the pleasure or is it something else. I think we masturbate because we are broken and hurt. We masturbate because we long for comfort. It is not about Sex. Even sex is not about sex.
I thought that my answer included that. Perhaps I was unclear.
No. You have not. You never went into the “why”. you assumed we do it to jerk our balls and get a self orgasm and then went on to give a moral answer – like most Christian teacher in this world do. Right if you do this – wrong if you do that. Judgement without empathy. Sorry but I need to say this as you are a marriage coach.
I dont NEED to masturbate or even HAVE sex, like I NEED to drink water or eat food. I will NOT die without sex like I would without food or water. No one decides to marturbate to get the orgasm feeling only. The orgasm only culminates what I am “seeking” to find – restoration to get my fix. I masturbate for the same reason a heroin addict takes a whiff. I masturbate because I am looking at restoring myself, my masculinity. Me stroking my penis is to calm myself, seek validation and restore my bruised ego and to feel like a man. The sad thing is it never works.
I’m going to point back to my original reasons.
In your case, I’m going to say a mix of 2 & 3. You’d rather masturbate than find out how to feel like a real man (selfish), and to get your fix (addiction), with perhaps a touch of #1, because you deny that these are the reasons. It’s not judgement without empathy. I’ve been there, I know how it feels. But, that doesn’t make it any more right.
As for it being a need, I agree. In fact, I have a post and a podcast episode about that. It’s not a personal need, but I do think it’s a relational need for marriage.
So, if it’s not working, perhaps it’s time to break the addiction and try something else?
My first time on your blog, so I may not have run across some other post related to my question. If there is one, please direct me to it.
My question comes from the other side: “Why do married _Women_ masturbate?” After over 30 years of marriage, I recently learned my wife has been masturbating with some regularity most of that time! She attributes it to an “addiction” which began in her teenage years. Porn very infrequently involved, and marital intimacy has been regular if somewhat infrequent at times because of work pressures. Any insights?
Welcome!
No, I haven’t addressed that in a post yet. I think a lot of the same applies to be honest, the stats are different of course, but not negligible. I would believe it’s an addiction that she’s going to need help breaking from. As for sex being infrequent, despite her masturbation habit: often people find it easier to masturbate alone than have sex. There’s less energy involved, less intimacy, less vulnerability. Often people feel a bit “empty” afterwards, but the “itch” is gone, without having to be afraid of being really intimate. Doesn’t make it right, but thought it might help you understand.
Have you asked her to quit or offered your support?
What about the husband or wife who very occasionally masturbates but lets their spouse know? My spouse and I both have libidos that cycle very high at times. When my libido is high I find it very hard to get anything done for thinking about my husband in sexual situations. This will sometimes happen when he is at work and I can’t reach him. When he comes home, I will tell him that I was thinking about him today and couldn’t reach him, my thoughts of him were making me crazy so I had to relieve myself. This is usually a big turn-on for him and most of the time ends up with me getting the real thing. The same goes for him. Sometimes he will let me know that he “lost it” thinking about me in the shower when I wasn’t home and he couldn’t reach me ( to come home or to have phone sex). I find that a turn-on also. Are we both committing some kind of adultery? With my first husband, masturbation was very hurtful to me because it was habitual and it was never about me. Our marriage only lasted one year. With my present husband it is altogether different as far as how we feel about it. Our occasional inability to stand up against sexual pressure isn’t something we feel we have to forgive each other for. Your thoughts?
My thoughts, which are just my opinion, is that there is a huge benefit to learning to have more self-control.
I think I would be far more turned on to hear that my wife had waited for a real connection with me rather than give in to the temptation of a merely physical experience by herself.
Thanks for you quick reply. I do agree that we could both probably benefit from more self control (in all areas, not just sexual), there is also the point that my husband is not you and while you might be more turned on because your wife waited, my husband sometimes feels pressured by my desire for him which has the opposite effect. We are dealing with that issue right now as a matter of fact. My libido is running high at the moment and his is very low. Coming home to a wife who is hot-to-trot (as he calls it) is not a huge turn on for him. It intimidates him a bit. He prefers the challenge of getting me excited and that challenge is heightened if he knows I’ve already had one orgasm in the past 24 hours. So different strokes for different folks (pun intended there). I will take what you’ve said and pray about it and also work harder to control myself while not letting on that I’m desirous of him. Maybe we both will benefit. In the interest of science, I’ll keep you informed of how we’re making out (that pun was intended too…lol).
This extraordinary guilt around a beautiful natural wonderful act. The church has caused more harm than it will ever know in trying to make people feel shame over there own bodies. Masterbating should be part of every marriage as yet another way to experience pleasure. I am constantly astonished by stories of men who don’t want to have sex with their wives, that suggests a serious problem in their relationship. I absolutely reject that is a sin. In almost all marriages one partner will have a different libido to the other. Why should there be shame in that? Why should the unfulfilled partner have to suffer and be made to put up with powerful natural feelings, whilst the other doesn’t even know. That is the kind of thing that leads to irrational behaviour.
Newsflash everyone… Masterbating does not make you go blind, it does not give you cancer, it does not mean you are a pervert. It’s a completely normal and natural thing. It is also private and should not be done in a way that embarrasses any one else or makes them feel uncomfortable. That’s it. If the thought of your partner doing it makes you feel betrayed, you need to think very carefully about the state of your relationship which is probably already flawed. Who are you to say what they can do with their own bodies? You don’t own them! They are not having sex with someone else, it’s normal and healthy. If they are ignoring you, it’s it because they are masterbating, it will be for a far deeper reason.
I agree, it will not make you go blind or give you cancer, and most relationships have libido differences. I think that’s about the only things I agree with in your comment.
Sorry Chris, that’s rubbish. If what you say is true, it would be the high drive spouse that masturbates not the low drive spouse. In my case, and in many other people’s cases, it is the higher drive spouse who goes unfulfilled but is NOT masturbating, while it is the lower drive spouse that has been offered sex multiple times a day but chooses to masturbate.
I’m not as strong in my views as Jay Dee. I don’t think of masturbation as automatically sin in all cases, but if there is the slightest trace of it doing wrong by your spouse/ future spouse than it mostly certainly is sin. And if someone is refusing their spouse regularly but is also masturbating regularly, then masturbation then is very much sin. It is NOT completely normal to reject your spouse in favour of your hand.
Of course women (and men) like me whose partners choose masturbation over sex (especially in cases like mine where it’s been going on our whole marriage), the natural thing is to feel betrayed. It is a betrayal of the marriage.
As for who are people to say what they can do with their own bodies? have you read the bible? Sexually people do own their spouse’s body.
I have to agree with Chris and Butterflywings about several things. I don’t think it’s a sin in all circumstances and I do think the church has done a lot of damage in all areas of sex not just masturbation. I do think it’s sin when it takes the place of a spouse who is willing to have sex. I’ve been studying a lot since my last comment and praying and still cannot come to the conclusion that it is wrong all of the time in every circumstance. I think it is way too much to ask of any human with a refusing spouse to lie next to them every night, see them naked, smell their scent, feel their skin and then lie there in desperation for hours because of a physical impulse that God Himself put there. I couldn’t do that for a month, much less a year or 10 years like some I’ve read about and also talked to personally. Sex was made for marriage because it keeps the marriage strong, not just for procreation. When one spouse refuses over and over but continues to expose his/her body in sight, smell, and touch to the other spouse, that to me, is akin to sexual torment which if not kept in check would eventually lead to adultery. Both spouses need to work on the “why” of this frigidity issue but I have no problem with using masturbation as a relief valve while doing so. When it becomes often and habitual, then it has become a problem. That is where self-control comes in. Until one has actually suffered through a long sexless marriage without masturbating, I don’t think that person actually knows that it can be done with “self control.” To me it is as Chris said, a normal physical requirement at times. As I stated in another thread, my husband would actually get painful lumps in his testicles if he went too long without sex. I had endometriosis for some years and so it interfered greatly in our sex life. Did Jesus masturbate? Well….I don’t know and it wouldn’t bother me if He did. He was in a human body with physical needs just like we are. He certainly must have had bowel movements, urinated, sweated and had body odor and probably bad breath on occasion. I know it is taboo to suggest such things but I don’t live in fear of discussion and He doesn’t care if I question. I know there weren’t any women in his group of disciples. Why expose himself to the temptation of traveling and sleeping every night with women? The Bible says he experienced every temptation known to man so sexual temptation was there. I certainly don’t want to imagine that he masturbated but I don’t want to imagine him sitting on a toilet either. There are just some private human functions that we are made to perform…some pleasurable and some not. For all people, some are necessary and for some people in some situations, masturbation is simply a physical function for relief of sexual tension. If it’s used after using a modicum of self control and without porn or fantasizing about another person (other than a spouse), I don’t see it as wrong. For me, I am so enamoured of my spouse that I can’t think straight after two weeks without sex. That doesn’t happen frequently but it does happen due to stress from his work (generally). It is true that sex has much to do with the mind but if you’ve “started the launch sequence” as Ray Romano puts it, certain chemical reactions occur that cause things to snowball. For some of us the chemistry is extremely hard to stand up against. I have found that in artistic types (that’s me), the urge can be much harder to overcome than it is for someone who is more analytical. All things are allowed but not all things are profitable. Any excess in the flesh is harmful….eating, smoking, drinking, gossiping, tattooing, body piercing, etc. Even an excess of medications is carnal and wrong in my view and there are millions of Christians with medicine cabinets full of them who frown on masturbation. There are also a lot of overweight Christians who have no problem filling up on junky processed food and who would be appalled at the thought of masturbating. Gluttony is named as a sin but “uncovering your own nakedness” isn’t. Paul always bemoaned the fact that we were stuck in these earthly bodies that wouldn’t allow us to concentrate fully on the spiritual. He wasn’t happy about his own body causing him to do what he didn’t want to do. Do we really know what those things were? It will be wonderful when we can all be free of the carnal but for now, we’re here in physical bodies and we have trials and tribulations of which sexual tension and imperfect relationships are a part. I just can’t bend enough Scripture to find masturbation wrong in every situation.
I have caught my husband many times watching porn and masturbating..I have even told him even if i am sleeping to wake me up ill be more then happy helping him..I even offered one night and he told me no so i went to bed then an hour 1/2 later i got up and he was in my living room masturbating to porn.. He comes in our bedroom and lied to me about it.. I think what hurt the most is he lied to me about it.. If he would have told me the truth we could have talked about it.. We have sex 4-6 times a week and i even help him the weeks of my period.. I feel like im not good enough sometimes.. He tells me he loves me and that im good enough.. he says he is battling porn addiction and he said he lied to me because he knows its wrong.. i dont know what else to do..
He needs to get help. If he’s unwilling to face someone in person, have him contact me at anonymousmarriagecoaching.com
What chemicals in the brain cause the strong sexual desire/libido in men, women? Can that desire be temporarily chemically short circuited? What chemicals/hormones does sexual release satisfy in the brain? Can that satisfaction come any other way than sexual release/orgasm so one is not tempted to masturbate ?
Testosterone is largely responsible for desire/libido in both genders, as far as I know. That’s why sexual desire tends to be stronger in men (because we generally have more testosterone). However, the brain is a lot more complex than we as a civilization understand, let alone me as an individual. There’s a lot that goes into it.
For example, while estrogen is not directly responsible for libido, I don’t think, it is important for arousal and lubrication, which form a cycle with libido. There’s certainly a relationship there anyways.
Can it be chemically short circuited?
If you mean to boost it, that’s a bit of a dangerous question. Some have found that boosting testosterone can improve libido, but whenever you’re messing with hormones, it’s advisable to have someone knowledgeable in that area to guide you.
If you mean can it be killed? Certainly, many women do it inadvertently with chemicals in soaps and perfumes. For example, parabens act as a pseudo-estrogen, which can stop your natural production of estrogen, which messes up your ability to be aroused, which in turn curbs your libido. Many hormonal birth controls have a similar effect, because they trick the body into thinking it’s pregnant using the same mechanism (estrogen).
What chemicals/hormones does sexual release satisfy in the brain? I’m not sure I know the entire list. I know dopamine, oxytocin and vassopressin for sure. Other ways to boost those?
Dopamine by doing anything new or risky, “winning” or being successful at a task. The newer, riskier, bigger the win, the bigger the dopamine rush. However, that can be dangerous. I’m not sure base jumping is a good way to avoid masturbating…
Oxytocin you can get in small quantities when you hug, touch, etc.
Vassopressin, I’m honestly not sure.
But, can these by used so one is tempted not to masturbate? Too big of a question to answer in a comment. I doubt it to be honest. I think the real trick is to foster true intimacy with your spouse. That’s the only real replacement.
If you’re talking about single people, that intimacy needs to come from God. A better source to be sure, but harder for many to accomplish.
Thanks Jay!! I knew sex was complicated. But now more and more I am realizing what an amazing creation God made when he made the sexes. Also, I am amazed at the connection between the brain and the body. My wife can get me up sexually with a word, or shut me down sexually with a word. Sometimes right in the middle of sex she will say something and I cannot perform. Maybe that is a good way to avoid masturbation. Be berated by your spouse!! :}
I know that’s a joke, but still. I don’t think that would work. What causes you not to perform is likely a break in intimacy. That’s a psychological response (which probably has a physiological response, but I don’ t know specifically). Chances are if that happened more often, you would run from your wife and run to masturbation to (incorrectly) try and fill the need of intimacy.
It is nice to see a post that counters all the reinforcement for men’s behaviors that the rest of the world (professional and otherwise) puts out. After 47 years of married I learned that my husband masturbated during all of it. Maybe I could have accepted it until I learned that it was necessary to use fantasies to accomplish this. These fantasies ranged from pictures to women he noticed to a very good friend of both of us. He did not use pornography but in my opinion the pornography existed in his mind so what’s the difference. Especially knowing that he imagined sex with someone we spent much social time with was devastating. Also there were 13 years he didn’t touch me at all and many decades before that he was distant. MASTURBATION is a problem. I am too old now to go out on my own but things will never be the same again even though he now has ED and can’t do it anymore and is trying to reconnect with me. You can’t get rid of the images this knowledge give you.
Great article. I think another reason husband might masturbate is out of spite for his wife. She is not “putting out” and after exhausting all human efforts to be patient and understand why, he gives in to his impulses one day. After a while of the wife being neglectful in this area, he responds by habit to masturbate.
Glad you liked it. However, your scenario doesn’t sound like spite at all. Rather, the husband traded intimacy with his spouse for sexual release.
Sometimes, I just wonder about God. He made me a sexual person. He gave me a sex drive, and the need to be with a woman. He made me so that I would love the female body. He filled the world with beautiful women, and then tells me I’m only allowed to look at one. Heck, there’s a million photos of naked women in my computer screen, their bodies wide open for my perusal (and arousal), but I’m not allowed to look. Not even if its just the pleasure of seeing a beautiful face and body, without thoughts of doing anything with that body.
Worse, Solomon had 600 wives, and I won’t even mention the concubines (- oops, I did). But I’ve had sex with just two women in my whole life. Solomon wasn’t censured or punished in any way as far as I know, but all hell breaks loose if I look at a body I’m not supposed to be looking at. I mean, really???
My wife and I have been married for 19 years. Believe me I would love to focus all my intimate and sexual energy with my wife but she won’t allow it. She has communicated with me directly that she doesn’t want me to initiate love making with her and that when she wants to make love she will initiate so I honor that. When 7, 8 10 or 20 days go by I masturbate to help me keep my thoughts and eyes from wandering to other women. I am human and my sexual needs require making love more regularly. I have read extensively on this subject and there are millions of men and women who are in the exact position as I am.
I wouldn’t honour that. You’re enabling her to violate 1 Corinthians 7:5 and damage your marriage. Stop being “nice” and start holding her accountable to her vows. Go see a counselor, therapist, coach, pastor, elder, etc. if need be.
I hate-love my pornaddiction. I have struggled with porn for so long and the last year everything has gone worse. I don’t know why I can’t let it go. I have confessed to my wife and to my pastor and etc. But I can’t be free. I often ask myself why do I want it so much? Why do I feel like I need it? Why? I can’t find a good answer. Saying that I am selfish and a horrible person doesn’t help. I know I am. I know that there are no excuses for me. I know I deserve hell. And feeling worthless makes it easier to fall. So why do I want this? Is it maybe something in my past? Was I molested? Did something happen when I was a kid? Is it a generational curse? I don’t know but maybe! When I think about my childhood many of my memories are connected to sex and porn. I can’t remember. I only know that many of my memories are about how I try to find porn or look at girls etc. And that has been the struggle of my life. I don’t know if I need therapy to find the reason? Maybe I was molested and that scared me? I just want to know why I have been so filled with lust since I was little. I believe in generational curses and spirits and I know my father watched porn(thankfully he has left that life) so maybe that curse was passed to me. I need deliverance then or else I don’t see anyway out of this. But maybe it’s long just that, maybe porn has become my comfort? Two years ago I got spiritually burnt out. I felt that I couldn’t take the pressure anymore. The pressure of being the good Christian man who did everything right. I couldn’t take the pressure of feeling worthless and never good enough. I fasted multiple times a week, I prayed for hours and etc. But was never happy. People warned me , take a break from Christchurch not God but from church. I didn’t listen. I had recently got married so porn wasn’t an issue but then suddenly the temptations came back. My wife was pregnant , sex was of the table, and I started to fall . I asked God for forgiveness and fasted and prayed and etc. But then one day something broke. I couldn’t pray, fast and barely read he Bible. I tried but couldn’t go on. I didn’t want to have anything to do with the church. I tried to pray at least five minutes and read Herve Bible but every time I got so exhausted. So what happened? I started to fall deeper deeper in porn. It was my comfort. When I was stressed I could watch and masturbate and it became a daily habit. I confessed to my wife and people but they can’t help me. The last couple of months I have started to battle it more and my hope is that I will succeed but the temptation is always there. My wife and I don’t have a sex life. Since we got kids she doesn’t care about sex. We have talked and it’s not about the porn she is just not in to it. So sometimes I feel like me watching porn is a win-win situation. I get release and she doesn’t need to hear me nag. But I know it kills our intimacy but she doesn’t feel so interested in it. Anyway sorry for the long post. I just feel so powerless. I wish i could have self controll because that’s how life is going to be. She doesn’t like sex so I have to train that but it’s hard. Really hard.
While I have to admit to the premise of this article I think there is one “Reason men masturbate” that is missing. You clearly listed data which I feel is undeniable. If men are having “Self Sex” just as much or more than with their wives why can’t another reason be the fact that some wives don’t want to have sex resulting in the husband resorting to masturbation to eliminate sexual frustration. In your article it is only assuming that men desire something other than their wives and they are at fault. What happens when you desire your wife and she refuses to have sex altogether or not that often? Let us also note that “talk to your wife” has already happened which resulted in no change. If you ask me some of us men a holding our relationships together with a string hoping that our wives come around before something far more dangerous that masturbation happen. And for fear of making a mistake that is not easily reversible masturbation or prayer (and sometimes a combination of both) is all we got!
I still hold that the article covers that one.
Ultimately, what you want is intimacy, not just an orgasm. So, masturbation gives you a false sense of satisfaction, which in fact what it’s doing is teaching you to fulfil your selfish desires without your spouse. I’ve seen too many marriages where one spouse gives up on trying to win back their husband or wife, because they’ve resorted to masturbation and it can get them through it. But, what if you didn’t. Want if you took all that energy and put it into your relationship. Is it guaranteed to work? No. But, you won’t die from a lack of orgasms or intimacy. You marriage might from the latter.
What I have seen, though, is a wife who finally realized how important sex was to her marriage, then found out her husband had been masturbating, and that broken trust set them back even further than they were.
I think the risk of masturbating, especially in that case, is very high. You’re sending the message to your spouse that “I’m not going to wait for you” or “You’re not critical to my sex life”.
Actually I think that’s a bit one sided. It’s not that I want to but after fighting over it for 5 years what are the alternatives on my side? In the year 2016 if we had sex (I’m being conservative here) 20 times that would be a good year. I can throw the bible at her as point to the responsibilities of a wife but you know what she knows all of the scriptures by heart. If she desired to please her husband I think she would. She knows I masturbate and she knows it’s because she is not giving unless it’s a situation that she herself have that urge. I hold no cards whatsoever on whether or not we have sex. And at that point I have to swallow my pride to have sex knowing that it’s only when she wants it. As for the intimacy etc I’ve tried that and after so many years of being pushed away (figuratively and physically) you are telling me don’t masturbate and be strong. Every man (or woman) has a limit. Why not say it’s also two sided and also point to a reason for this happening is unfulfilled desires (whether on purpose or not). Besides Paul did say not to withhold due to the dangers. While there are more than two dangers let’s say it either masturbation or infidelity. I choose the lesser of the evils that I was faced with. As for your last comment “you’re not critical to my sex life” that also goes to a spouse that withholds which forces the other to “Self Sex” due to their lack of interest
A wife who responds to learning her husband masturbates by escalating sexual refusal is like a person who denies giving a man dying of thirst clean water because he has been drinking dirty water in the past. If she has been refusing and the consequence is his masturbation and then she reacts to learning about it by refusing even more, she is a sadistic person. The cruelty is amazing. Only somebody fundamentally contemptuous of the male sex drive could ever act like that. Rebellious women are told they have a right to say “no” and the husband just suffers and hopes for a brighter tomorrow? No sex, no masturbation, and a pat on the head saying, “You won’t die, so don’t worry, be happy! Your wife might finally come around, but if she doesn’t, at least you’ll die and go to heaven and get extra rewards for not masturbating.”
No, I don’t think most of them are sadistic. Misguided perhaps. Flawed. Sinful. Human. But generally not sadistic.
Usually, they don’t understand the pain they are causing, or they are so wrapped up in their own issues, they can’t see past them to see their spouses. I’m definitely not saying they have the right to say “no”. Far from it. However, their sin does not exonerate yours.
And it’s not about going to heaven and getting “extra rewards”. It’s about focusing on the intimacy that should be in your marriage and promoting it. If you masturbate, you send a clear message to your spouse: You’re not worth waiting for.
Then you wonder why your wife is upset. You just said that your own personal sexual gratification is more important to you than she is.
But, if you wait, there is the potential she will see just how important she is to that part of your life. That is why I advise men (and women) wait for their spouse. Because sex was designed to be shared with them, and anything outside of that damages or cheapens the relationship.
So, do you choose your wife or your own desires? Which is more important to you?
You wrote, “You’re not worth waiting for.” My wife was worth waiting for. I was engaged for fourteen months and waited to be married to her. After I was married, she “defrauded” me by making me wait some more. I am a married man and the waiting must end. There is no good reason for me to have to wait, now that I am married for over four years.
Shalom to all.
I read and observe. I doubt, who is Blameless here, please raise his hand?
Who is the holy one here please raise his hand?
I dare not, for I’m a sinner. I’m saved by His grace daily. I’m not righteous, He was righteous so I’m righteous only when dwell in Him.
What I found here is everyone try to justify their stand and that including me … But I had confessed earlier that I’m a sinner.
1st. Do not be a liar. Do not write and doing another thing on the behind. GOD knows.
2nd. Do not persecute or judge others. Showing the scriptures but if not practicing it, God knows it. He search our deepest heart.
I will not throw in any scriptures here… Because God knows our heart and He is always there.
Why brethren boast about own righteousness? Is not this righteousness is from our Lord YaHshuah? Go ahead judge me if you want.
Do I masturbate? Yes
Do I watch porn? Yes
Do I lust on girls in real life? No
Do I stare and lust on beautiful girls? No
I’m just a normal man. I do know and able to distinct between fiction movies and real life even I lacked of knowledge.
Fortunately, by His grace wisdom is bestowed. If we have problem mixing it in real life, that’s the true problem. If all take things literally, it will be lack of wisdom. No, not knowledge. Knowledge was abundance in this corrupted world.
Here is the instrument for your own measure – how much peace, contentment and faith do you really have in all these years following Lord YaHshuah despite all pressure/obstacles/unfortunate events you had faced or facing?
Peace to all. May wisdom and truth be with you. All glory to Abba YHVH. In Lord YaHshuah haMashiach glorious almighty name. Amen
That’s a tidy rationalization for why you can continue to sin.
However, the Bible teaches that we should not turn our minds towards sexual immorality. Whether the images are real or not, fiction or not, the battle for your mind is real, and the enemy has gained a foothold in yours that you are defending for him.
Nowhere is it established that masturbation is a sin, but tell us more about that log in your own eye while you are looking for sawdust in the eyes of others. Ever read Matthew chapter 7? It’s in the New Testament. You really should take a look at it.
Yeah, I did. Verse 5 is particularly interesting in this conversation:
“You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”
I used to believe masturbation was okay. I then was convicted that I was fooling myself and I recanted, got right with God, fixed my marriage and lived happily ever after. I took the log out of my own eye on this topic. Now I’m working to help other’s with their speck, as commanded. I’m not saying I’m perfect, but I’ve addressed this issue at least. I look forward to you joining me one day.
I am really interested in the Jewish laws regarding sexual frequency because I believe, as a Christian, that I have been horribly mis-educated on the expectations I was entitled to have going into marriage. Most of the pre-marital counseling and advice given from parents and others focuses on the self-sacrificial aspects of marriage, which are very important no doubt. But missing in all of this is a frank discussion on marital entitlements, those aspects which are simply not up for sacrifice. Regular sexual relations are a non-negotiable aspect of sex unless there is some extreme event in a marriage (like one spouse is in a car accident and paralyzed or something similar). While the act of sex in marriage is intended for mutual self giving, it should still be viewed at its fundamental level to be a marital entitlement. I have a right to regular sexual relations.
But the fear in many (and not always unfounded) is that an actual entitlement will be used as a license to bully. Because of this fear, it is very tempting for counselors and others to soft-pedal the entitlement of sex so as not to offend people who might be hyper-sensitive to feeling pressured into doing something they don’t want to do. My advice to these individuals, however, would be – DON’T GET MARRIED. Pre-marital counselors have to be willing to speak this truth in love to potential spouses who seem unwilling to accept the entitlement nature of sex in marriage.
For myself, however, it would have been incredibly liberating to have been told unambiguously that sex is an entitlement. I was raised by a very “concerned” mother who was very good at endless lectures about the evils of sex-crazed male bullies and pick up artists. At the age of 18, having never been on a date, my mother begged me to promise her that I would never let a girl talk me into bed. So fearful was she that I would exploit or otherwise take advantage of a girl, that she smothered me with “advice” and often chastised me when I acted even remotely interested in a particular girl who didn’t seem like the right kind of girl (too pretty, too worldly).
At the age of 26, having never had a girlfriend, I met my future wife who was a strong Christian but also was way too attractive for her own good. What this meant was that she had a significant sexual history, which I learned some about just a few months before our wedding. I struggled to figure out if this was going to be a problem. But since I was desperate to get married and begin my own sexual history, I rationalized her lack of virginity by consoling myself with the knowledge that she would probably be a lot more forthcoming in the bedroom than a virgin would be.
I could not have been more wrong. The tremendous sexual disparity between us was too much for me to handle. The first year was fine, but after our first child I could tell that she had a real problem opening up about sex. I was so clumsy and never could seem to get things right. She grew impatient with me and negatively compared me to ex-boyfriends which further drove my confidence downward. Eventually, we only had sex when I was absolutely desperate and it was very unsatisfying. She pulled away, too, and focused only on the children.
Masturbation became an outlet not simply for physical relief but as a poor substitute for real intimacy with her. And while I craved intimacy, she was having none of it. A tremendous emotional wall was between us and I blamed myself and my upbringing. I also did not believe I was entitled to sex at all so I felt I had no moral standing to pursue sex with my wife. You see, I needed desperately to know it was an entitlement, both for me and for her. Because I am so motivated by doing the right thing, it would have pushed me to pursue sex as a mission. I needed to make sex a HUGE priority to overcome my reluctance. Only a sustained campaign of sexual pursuit of my wife would have succeeded in overcoming the walls that were between us. And only the knowledge, clearly stated and consistently advocated by my pastor and mentors, that sex was indeed an entitlement and a necessity in marriage would be enough to get me going. I was passive and timid about sex. I needed to be like a ravenous beast and pursue my wife like she was my prey. My mother would have been horrified by this mentality, but its what I needed to get me going.
I hate masturbation. I hate porn. I hate sexual neglect. I hate sexual refusal. They are all sins. Sin is bad. But we are broken people who need the grace of God and not a stern lecture and an endless academic debate. Women need to be pursued and make themselves pursuable. My wife could not do this because she was broken by the sin of fornication and, as I eventually learned, the sins of multiple abortions (discovered much later in our marriage). I don’t feel like there is any hope for me as I am older. My testosterone levels are low even after months of treatment and my blood pressure is high. I could work for months to lose weight and get myself back in shape to begin all over again the process of sexually pursuing my wife. But at my age and with my history of failure, I don’t have the emotional strength for more rejection and apathy on her part. I am done being shamed for my sex drive by anybody. And this includes having to beg for it from somebody that says “I can take it or leave it.”
Hopefully my children will learn from my mistakes. I will be telling my sons to insist on having lots of sex when they get married. I will be teaching them that sex is a right and a necessity and not just a nice little bonus that isn’t very important. I will tell them to make sure to have sex at least 3-5 times a week and try to keep that frequency up for the rest of their lives. And if their future spouse has a problem with it, dump them and find another future spouse.
There are those who are steadfast anti-masturbation (sans porn as porn is NEVER right) tend to overlook their own issues with repeated readings of romance novels (lust) or gossip (murder) or overeating (gluttony). Am I right?
I do agree that masturbation does take away and lessen a very intimate and special part of a marriage. Long periods of separation or medical reasons – I give some leeway there, each circumstance in it’s own context.
Anyone using porn (either photo or written word) flies in the face of the wonderfulness of marital intimacy that God intended. Look, we all tend to attack sins pretty hard that are not our personal downfall or issue and we tend to give ourselves a lot of leniency when it comes to our own shortcomings. Lust, gossip, overeating, etc – are all areas of self awareness and then self discipline with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Yep, “mommy-porn” is a serious issue.
Therein lies an interesting twist: a comment was made about women who consider men viewing porn as grounds for adultery. I would agree if it is a repeated habitual offense without any sign of remorse or repentance. But like overeating, most of us struggle with that. As Charles Spurgeon once said, “Dead men don’t wrestle” … so as long as one is wrestling, that is a good thing. When the “wrestling” stops, that is a point of concern.
So for a moment, just to garner some conversation, would a man consider reading mommy-porn in the same light – as adultery and therefore as grounds for a divorce? Granted not all women feel this way about men and I am not sure that men would be as harsh – they would see it as a positive thing – that their wife had an interest in sex – that’s a good start in one sense.
So I am curious to hear comments on “do women who partake of mommy-porn see it as a reasonable break of fidelity and therefore grounds for divorce?”
I probably have missed it in all the previous comments, so I will pose the question: has a similar post ever been done about Why Do Married Women Masturbate?” Just curious. Post a link if I missed it or create a new post if you would be so kind.
Have a good day, all!
I was thinking about doing a post on porn (in all forms), the argument of divorce, and how to deal with it. I’ll make sure to address these questions.
There isn’t a post on “Why do married women masturbate”, because, frankly, no one’s asking. “Why do married men masturbate” gets visited hundreds of times a week because the problem is so prevalent. That said, it’s a rising problem (along with the use of porn among Christian women), so I will probably address it at some point.
Awesome. I would venture a guess that no one is asking “why?” about married women is for several reasons –
a.) it may not happen as often – men tend to have a higher libido and need for release,
b.) men wouldn’t see it as a problem as they understand the need for release. Most men would be willing to use it as a “bedroom” conversation starter. I once walked in on my wife pleasing herself. She was so into it she never heard me enter the room. At first she was a lil embarrassed but was I upset? Did I consider divorcing her?
Not at all – my wife was 1/2 naked and in the mood! I offered to help her finish and we had a wonderful time, all smiles in the end. Anger never entered into my mind at all. I hope to catch her more often!
c.) forgive me if this sounds sexist, it is certainly not my intent – women do like to “fix” men. It’s well known that a man sees a woman, wants to marry her but gets upset or confused after they are married and she changes. He married her because of the way she was and he liked that. Women have told me that they look at a man from the perspective of his potential or what she could help him become. There is the “I can fix him/he needs me to be complete” syndrome. Granted that is a general statement and it does not apply in all cases, and in varying degrees for both men and women in that way.
d.) Women are more emotional in nature than men with regards to sex. We are wired differently. For men, sex can be completely devoid of emotion – it can be just a physical thing. Women will associate sex with an emotional connection. Neither is bad or wrong, it’s just the way things are. And since God created each of us in His own image, both are actually right and good. Men can learn from women and women from men.
I concur with your points. I would love to see a post about women and why they do. That would be interesting.
To respond to some of your points:
a) Men tend to have a higher libido, but that doesn’t mean they have a need for release. They have a desire for release, certainly.
b) I don’t agree with this at all. I do not have a “need” for release. Strong desire, yes, but the “need” is more like an addiction. You want it because you have it regularly. That said, I agree that most men wouldn’t take offence if their wife masturbated. Frankly, they’d probably just be happy that they are exhibiting the fact that they are sexual desires. But that’s the problem, it’s short-sighted. What they really want is intimacy and masturbation is a counter to that. While it’s erotic to see your wife masturbating, what’s happening is she is learning to have her sexual desires met without the need for a relationship, and I don’t think that’s what God intended.
c) Yes, women tend to like to “fix” men. However, men are generally too passive to actually address real issues in their marriage, so I think we have issues on both sides of that spectrum. The fact that a man won’t be upset at his wife for masturbating doesn’t mean it’s okay.
d) Women are not more emotional in nature with regards to sex. They’re just better at expressing it. Actually, studies show that men are more emotional. We just don’t process that emotion well. I don’t believe men can easily have sex devoid of emotion. I think if they get to that point, they have broken something internally. They’ve cut off a part of themselves that was supposed to be there.
So, I’m not sure we concur on my points as we seem to be quite differing in our stances.
Valid points, all. I understand where you are coming from..
a.) need/desire may just be a matter of semantics – sometimes i use those words interchangeably.
b.) again, semantics. perhaps i should not interchange those words so often
c.) i have never given that any thought, that “men are generally too passive to actually address real issues in their marriage” maybe it’s kind of tied in w/ your response to d – in that men don’t articulate their emotions as well. Or they don’t put as high a priority on it as women might.
I have been a guy all my life and around guys all my life. Yes, guys are VERY capable of having sex with out emotion. Strip bars, prostitution, etc. And yes, that does indicate that something is indeed broken. No doubt. But by and large there are many more non believer men than believers, so that was in my mind when i wrote that. I think that God does a healing work in us when we get saved and this is one of the areas in which men do need help. I had to relearn a lot about sex and relationships when I came to the Lord.
I do agree with you re: masturbation not being the way it was intended. I don’t think that we are too far off from each other in concept. Good dialogue and thank you for your very well thought out response.
Always a pleasure! Good and valid points that I will ponder in my heart w/ prayer. i am sure i don’t know everything and can still learn a thing or 2.
Some more insight as to why married men masturbate –
https://thexycode.com/2017/05/01/every-man-has-two-sex-lives-2/
This is a typical guys experience and what most men battle with, being raised in our culture. Yes, God can redeem this like anything else. It takes 2 things to start: 1.) men have to first be aware of this and 2.) have the desire to change. If you aren’t aware of the problem, you don’t know it exists and once aware, one has to desire to change. We as men have to rethink and relearn our way back to love, sex and marriage the way that God intended it – not the way society, TV, etc. present it to us.
The purpose of sharing this is not to make an excuse but rather to provide insight into the mind of men awash in a culture of like ours. It’s accurate.
So the other day I was reading about Solomon and how he followed the Lord in every way but did not rid the nation of “the high places” and the Asherah poles. (1Kings 3:3) All throughout the OT, many many kings had done the same, in like manner. Whenever I read these types of passages, I always shake my head and think, “Solomon, how could you?!? You have it all! Why would you not go thru with everything and get rid of the high places?!? It’s a no brainer!” As well for all the other kings who followed in similar suit.
God began to speak to me about making a correlation between how a modern correlation to this is porn (in any form), since it is a common problem among men (and women) that leads to self pleasure. Which of course ties in to the general nature of this thread.
And then I ran across this link – what a great read:
https://thelasthiker.wordpress.com/2014/06/01/pornography-asherah-poles-and-high-places/
Enjoy the insight. I really did. I believe it applies to not only porn but any other “secret” sin. And in the end, God wants us to be free from sin, not because He wants to limit us, but rather because He wants us to know true freedom.
God bless you all and I hope this speaks to you. It certainly did to me. If someone were reading my life story and saw that I did all that I could to follow the Lord but let the “high places” still remain in my life….I would be so embarassed! Why didnt’ I…?!?
Jaydee – I enjoy your postings and all the comments. Great stuff. Keep it going and God bless!
Hello. I’m 21, recently got married this past January. About a month ago I walked in on my husband masturbating in the shower when he thought I was asleep. My heart dropped, and I felt so devistated. I acted like I didn’t see what was going on but it kept bothering me so when he got into bed that night I confronted him and he lied to my face. I told me straight forward that I saw you so please stop lying and he continued to deny what I saw. The next day I brought up the incident again and he admitted to me that he was doing that, and he was just to embarrassed to be honest. He kept pointing out that was not his intentions. We had a long discussion of why it hurt my feelings and what not. The thing I am so confused about is, I just assumed he stopped doing that all together since we have gotten married, because we have been having sex everyday 2-3 times a day still up until this point. My biggest struggle now is I feel like he is still doing it behind my back. I wish I never walked in on him and remained blind to this issue, but now I feel very insecure (never was before) as if he cheated on me. I ask him occasionally if he has been tempted to do it since the incident, but he will say no. I wish he would just be comfortable with me, and let me in on his struggles so I can help and pray for him.
Here, here…well said!
Here’s one reason I can think of: wife’s not into sex, uses sex for leverage etc. Oops, that’s two reasons.
That’s not a reason, let alone two. That’s an excuse by someone who doesn’t take responsibility for their own actions. Regardless of what your wife does, masturbation is a choice.
By choosing to masturbate you:
1) Show your wife you don’t need her for sexual fulfillment.
2) Show your wife you would rather pleasure yourself than wait for her.
You think either of those is going to make her want to have more?
I am now 78, and I have not had sexual intercourse for 24 years. I have been masturbating ever since currently about ever 4 or 5 days.
At my age of 54, my wife completed menopause and asked that i ‘desist’ with sexual relations. She no longer desired it or enjoyed it.
I agreed to her request on the understanding that I could relieve my sexual tension with masturbation as often as needed. That deal has worked well.
It is my firm belief that most men over the age of about 55 are in the same situation as myself.
Well, let me check the stats from my latest survey.
Man after the age of 54 (145 respondents) responded to the question of “How often do you have sex?” with the following answers:
I’m afraid your firm belief isn’t based on fact. Only 8.3% of the respondents answers saying they don’t have sex any more, leaving 91.7% of men your age and older in a dissimilar situation. So, if you are resting on the “well, this is normal” belief, snap out of it.
It’s not okay that your wife unilaterally decided that you both aren’t going to have sex any more. She’s violating scripture (1 Cor 7:5) and you are enabling her. I wouldn’t call that “working well”.
Well put. It is NOT okay for a wife to be that selfish to not tend to a husband’s needs. If it was okay, then husbands should withhold their support in return. Imagine how well that will go down. Personally I think that this is more of a western civilisation issue, especially in the US. American women seem to think that it’s okay to treat men like 2nd class citizens, and there is only one way to deal with that – make it clear that it is NOT okay and that we will NOT accept it any longer.
I’m with you. I feel the same. It breaks my heart and spirit too. 🙁
Well, my wife has stated to me that she no longer wants to have sex with me. In fact she no longer even sleeps in the same room and moved all her stuff to our spare bedroom. We are in our 60’s and healthy. I still have a high libido and masturbation is my only outlet ( refuse to cheat).
So, you commit infidelity because you accept hers?
Jay Dee your broad rhetorical question shows a lack of compassion and understanding. His response does not in anyway suggest his thoughts are outside of his marriage. Your judgement implies you do not believe this mans thoughts are only for his wife and that her lack of libido is purely wilful. Would you still have the same response if the anonymous man was married to a woman who had suffered a catastrophic physical or mental episode that prevented any chance of intimate relationship within the marriage?
On a much less dramatic scale, many older women who have had part or most of their reproductive organs removed experience a loss of libido. I would suggest that Mr Anonymous is being as loving as he can towards his wife in what is a very difficult situation. To impose himself on his wife when she is either unwilling or unable to respond to him would be nothing less than rape.
Finally all the sin of the Christian (past present and future) has been dealt with on the cross. This does not give us licence to go on sinning, but neither should we pass judgment.
I didn’t say his thoughts were outside of his marriage. Infidelity merely means being unfaithful. It doesn’t require another person. She is committing infidelity by not meeting his sexual needs, and he is committing infidelity by taking matters into his own hands and showing he’s not willing to wait for her.
Her sin does not excuse his.
If the anonymous man’s wife had a catastrophic disease, episode, etc, I would hope he’d remain celibate. After all, his sexual partner is out of commission. Sex is a need for the relationship, not for the individual. It’s just a desire for the person.
As for those who have had their organs removed, or lost libido for some other reason, that doesn’t excuse the commitment you made. You can still participate and even receive pleasure. If my give my wife a massage out of a selfless desire to see her feel good, how is that rape against me?
And lastly, the passing judgment thing is not biblical. Rather it’s grace taken on its own, without the other side of the coin – justice. It’s a mockery of what Jesus taught.
Matthew 7:1-5 (Luke 6:37-42) doesn’t say don’t judge. It says to judge well.
Proverbs 31:9 calls use to judge fairly.
1 Corinthians 6:1-6 says that we will judge the world, and should be able to just trivial cases easily.
Leviticus 19:15 says to judge fairly
The Bible teaches quite clearly that we are to judge our fellow Christian’s actions and behaviours and hold them accountable to an exacting standard, just as they judge us and do the same. What we cannot judge is a person’s heart, because we cannot see it. I cannot declare he will be saved or not. I can see that actions committed either line up with the Truth or don’t. Those are what we should judge.
Maybe if wives had sex with their husbands enough there would be no need for male masturbation. The bible makes it clear that if a wife does not tend to her husbands physical needs then it is grounds for a divorce. To be quite frank I would suggest that men seriously consider that option in a marriage that is unhappy and where the wife does not respect the needs of her husband. Why should any man simply accept that his wife does not care enough about him. Men want to be desired by their wives and it often has little to do with just sex so much as it has to do with being loved enough to care.
However, sex is also a physical need like eating and drinking. Our bodies function automatically whether we like that fact or not. If your husband or wife withholds sex or does not care how much you personally need then maybe it is time to consider another relationship to find a better match and secure a happier marriage. A marriage is surely not happy of one person feels deprived of sex. In fact, unless there is an underlying medical condition, a marriage is no longer a marriage without intimacy.
Sex is not a bad thing until there is judgement from someone that doesn’t want sex themselves, whilst believing that’s also okay for their spouse. It is not okay to ignore your partner, it is not okay to deprive them of something their body requires on a regular basis, it is not okay to make someone suffer by feeling uncared for. At the same time, it is NOT okay to watch porn and to masturbate IF your spouse is giving themselves to you when you need them. That is wrong, because there is no longer physical need with a healthy caring relationship, this then becomes much more deviant as it is now much more of a choice of porn over an attentive spouse. Moreover, a loving wife like that would be very justified in being offended and confused when there is clearly no physical excuse for it.
Personally, I would love to have much more sex with my wife, as I would not want or need anything else at all. However, I am not happy with my sex life in recent years, and I am seriously considering divorce because I would like to find a partner that values me much more and puts the effort into making sure we are intimate enough to sustain the necessary balance. Too many women take their husbands for granted and so it is about time that men decided to change that by not accepting that it as okay. It is NOT okay and you DON’T have to put up with it.
If it’s okay to withhold sex then it’s also okay to remove yourself from the situation. If a spouse doesn’t care enough then why should a long suffering partner ultimately care about a marriage that is no longer a marriage? Of course, you must give your spouse a chance to address the issue, but if they do not then you might have to assume that they don’t not care about your needs at all, and therefore make it clear that you are seriously considering divorce on the grounds of Ephesians 5:22.
Men need to stop being so weak. It’s time that men became men again and stood tall and strong for their basic human rights too. Don’t let women bully you with their selfish passive aggressive manipulative behaviour. At least withdraw your support for what they want from you so that they know what it feels like. If they only want sex once a month then withdraw from sex completely. Why should you give them what they want and when they want it, when you are not treated in the same way?
In short, women are frequently abusing men by not giving their husbands enough intimacy and it is time that men STOP accepting it.
I’m not aware of any verse that says that you can divorce due to a lack of sex.
“Do you know of any other reasons?” Yes I do know of another reason. My wife deprives, denies, forsakes and defrauds me. (1 Corinthians 7:9). Though I am a married man, I “burn with passion.” I desire my wife and pray daily that she will desire me passionately and sexually and she continues to defraud me and deprive me of my marital right. She has broken her marriage vows to me and continues to do so. She has an obligation and a duty to not deprive me yet she does. That is why I masturbate and look at porn. I pray for forgiveness every time and pray for sex with my wife every day. Though I waited during my engagement, for over a year, she makes me wait, though we have been married over four years. So in my heat and passion, I relieve myself by sinning and looking at porn. I pray that God is merciful to me! This is sexual immorality by her and I pray that God is merciful to her, because I love her.
So, basically you’re not responsible for your own decisions or actions. “It’s her fault” is your reason. I wonder how that excuse will fly with Him…
As I tell my kids when they blame their siblings for their own bad behaviour: “Just because they hurt you doesn’t mean it’s okay to hurt them back.”
My husband masturbates all night long and I am certain he is involved in bestiality with our dog but when I bring it up he becomes furious and even tried to commit me to a psych hospital. Went to the courthouse and everything. If he knows he’s guilty of it and knows I’m aware of it, why doesn’t he tell the truth? I’ve been very loving about it but he won’t here of it and if I accuse him again he’s going to divorce me. I don’t know what to do but I know I can’t live like this. When we have sex about every 3 weeks he sometimes can’t get an erection or keep one and has dry orgasms, if there real. Help, I don’t know what to do anymore.
What if your wife is sexually rejecting you? My wife has refused sex with me on a number of times. And right now it’s been over a week since we had sex and it was halfhearted from her. If I don’t masturbate I will have to many wet dreams and cum in my sleep.
I hate masturbating it feels selfish but my wife has made herself unavailable. I would love to have sex with my wife but she refuses any form of intimacy right now even kisses are not done. When I have sex with my wife in a normal basis like 5 times or more a week I don’t masturbate and I am not tempted to masturbate.
If I caught her masturbating I would be upset since she has denied me. And if any woman catches a man masturbating who has denied her I think she has a right to be upset. Wish we had more sex like we used to, I feel unattractive and I hate the rejection. Can’t do 3 times a month ughh.
Just a small point: 5 times a week or more is considered far more than “normal basis”. The average among my readers is 2-3 times per week.
More importantly: What has she said when you discuss the rejection?
I wanted to add some thoughts here, although I know this is a very old (yet very applicable) post.
I see all the points of view when it comes to this topic. One thing I have found most beneficial from this whole site is the importance of open communication in a marriage, which ideally should have started before marriage, the groundwork laid before the vows for open communication. This should be a mandatory topic (masterbation for both parties) pre marriage and maybe even w
As a minister, I will conduct marriages if and only if they commit to counseling with me and a huge part of my counseling is about open communication, active listening and problem solving together. My marriage still needs some work on communication, but I’m glad for the work we put in up front so I can discuss matters like needing more intimacy and removing some of those temptations which are just waiting to strike.
One thing I’ve found disturbing in these comments and elsewhere in comments on this site are people wanting to justify porn. I’d assume most people here would call themselves Christians, which makes it more shocking. Our society has done a great job of compartmentalism, everything can have its own separate place. I’ve seen that here concerning porn. One commenter said something to the tune of “do I look at porn, yes. Do I lust after women in real life, no”.
Our society has blurred those lines. To someone who would, as a Christian, justify watching porn, would you also justify sitting in a bedroom and watching 2 people engaging in those acts live? I’d bet many wouldn’t, but It isn’t any different, we make the difference in our own minds.
One thing satan does is helps us to minimize and justify. This article has done a good job to shed light on that. But this article is just a part of the bigger picture to marital happiness, which I think is predicated on open communication.
Glad you enjoyed it 🙂
Yeah, I agree, that trend is concerning.
We all feel very confident in our understandings of biblical sexuality, but the consensus of the Church once strongly opposed contraception and any type of sexual pleasure without procreation involved (something pretty much taken for granted here). The largest group of Christians on this globe (Roman Catholics – at around 1.5 billion), which hold the oldest Christian traditions, would certainly argue that many of the recommended solutions here would actually be considered sin by the Catholic Catechism. And they do (very convincingly) argue that contraception, mutual masturbation, sex toys, masturbating to an image of your wife, is all still sin. Is masturbating to an image of one’s wife (even with her consent) really that different from viewing porn? In both cases, the person in the image consented to your viewing them, but you’re basically having sex with a photo – not a person. I would rather go solo without any photos to look at. And why would I send nude photos when that crap is being recorded and filed away by the phone company and/or government? What if I accidentally send it to the wrong person or my wife looks at it accidentally in front of others? It would seem Christian decency would discourage such risky behaviors. When men don’t have release for several days, their testosterone levels do increase (usually by the 7th day) and it can disrupt their sleeping patterns. There is a fundamental misunderstanding that men like to pleasure themselves just because they’re coping, bored, or because it’s fun. This is not true. It can cause physical discomfort and even distress to go a long time without any release – which leads to blue balls. Sometimes, nocturnal emissions don’t come often. Actually, men already feel vulnerable without marriage about controlling their desires because their is ever such little self-control to begin with.
I wouldn’t hold up the Roman Catholic church as being the moral compass on any topic, least of all sex.
And I agree, solo masturbation to a picture or a memory is the same – it’s having sex without your spouse, and I would say not advisable.
And yes, if you send pictures, you should find a secure way to do it. There is a weighing of risk that must happen. But if you’re too risk-averse, then you’d never have sex, because we have technology that can be hidden in your home and can see in the dark, so then you could never be sure someone wasn’t watching. We just trust that they won’t be.
This is unsubstantiated by science. It’s a theory floating around, but there have been no studies to prove it. Actually, they disprove it. Testosterone levels do not declined from masturbation. In fact, what you are doing is training your body to get release every few days, and that’s what causes blue balls and the physical discomfort. If you stopped, you wouldn’t experience those unless you’re having sex every few days – which if you’re married is highly recommended.
What I’m not seeing here is how often this behavior is associated with a sexless marriage condition. For too many of us, our wives have made it clear that our advances are not welcome, EVER. Men, in general, are not going to subject themselves to that kind of humiliation and rejection too many times before just giving up. If I’m going to have to beg, I’ll take care of myself, thank you very much! That’s how many of us think and feel. I blame this, more than anything, on the prevailing feminist attitude almost ALL WOMEN have today, both in the church and out. I.e., if there is going to be ANY sexual contact at all, SHE will be the one who decides when and IF it is “appropriate”. Wives, how many of you have asked yourselves how YOU have contributed to this “problem,” (like repeatedly undermining his masculinity and/or pride) let alone done anything to fix it, (Like giving the sexual reigns back to your husband, and making sure he feels like his attention is welcome?)
I don’t have a specific number, but only about 10% of marriages are sexless, and the majority of men masturbate, so I think the correlation is less than you think.
As well, one person’s sin doesn’t excuse another’s. If your wife is rejecting you, that doesn’t mean you have the right to violate your vows.
As one of the countless men today hanging on in a sexless marriage. (It’s now been just over a year. Less than a dozen times in the first 5 years) I have lost perspective, really. I just know it’s untenable and everything I do to “fix” it, seems to backfire. There are soooo many women today that think holding out is normal, and even proper feminist behavior. My W has even told me to “take care of it” myself and leave her alone. What’s your brilliiant, enlightened answer to that?
I’m afraid I can’t claim to be brilliant or enlightened. But I’d love to have a conversation with both of you and get her side of the story. I’m curious as to her perspective. I think that might give a lot of insight into her behaviour and maybe a path forward.
your link here is broken. I’d sure like to read that post.
very well said!
My wife’s limit of sex for 20 years was about 3 times a month, once a week weekend only and skip the week of her period. For most men, 3 times a month is not enough when nothing else is offered.
Really? My husband used to call me sex obsessed pervert first insisting on at least that much sex. Women with healthy views of sex don’t find it any easier to go without than men with healthy views of sex.
That’s unimaginable. I don’t particularly like my wife all that much nor do I find her attractive anymore, yet, still engage in sex more than that. I’m happy masturbation is an option, even as a last resort to stay behaviorally balanced.
If by “risk free” you mean free of the risk of constant ridicule, reprimand, and rejection by a wife who has been corrupted by feminist dogma, then you’re right. It’s also risk free in terms of an STD that could really ruin the marriage. I simply don’t believe God designed monogomy as a sustainable construct. The 12 sons of Israel had 7 mothers between them. The possibility of another wife or concubine tends to keep a serial denier on her toes, so to speak!
I’d really like to see a legit study on how men who privately indulge are also in sexless marriages vis-a-vis those in healthy relationships.
Almost 2 years into marriage, I am really struggling with my wife having a lower sex drive than me. Being into porn pre marriage and having a couple slip ups since, the times without sex and when she is on her period is very difficult for me and I’ve considered masturbating so many times. I understand why it’s wrong but I just feel let down in our sex life due to the frequency and don’t know what to do.
Have you talked to her about it?
Hey JD, I wonder if you have had any other post garner such sustained comments. It is 8 years old already and still getting comments in 2020. Obviously, this is still a topic that has not been settled. At the risk of beating a dead horse…
Back in the mid-90’s, I was involved with local ministerial effort created to speak against the “safe sex/condoms in public high school washrooms” movement. Part of our background study was evaluating the Kinsey report and one of the things we discovered about this “all important seminal study in modern sexuality” was that all of the surveys were conducted in prisons, using not just convicted felons, but felons who were specifically convicted of sexual crimes, with a focus on normalizing any and all sexual acts as normal in the entire, wider population. Consequently, ever since then, I just cringe when I see any Christian using Kinsey for any reason. This in no way invalidates any of your other statistics.
All of that being said, I think I tend to agree with Paul B., just for the record.
Blessings, and Keep on Crusading for Biblical Marriage.
Very old article I know, but I think you are interpreting the data points above incorrectly. Most men are masturbating more than having sex with their wives because that’s all their wives will agree to. I know each rrelationships different but most men genuinely want to please their wives and enjoy a healthy, mutually beneficial sexual relationship. “Sex with themselves” is not an accurate description of masterbating. Masterbating is about the bilogocal need for a release, while sex is the whole package.. pleasure, intimacy, bonding, etc. Theres really no comparing the two in my opinion. The stats on porn use are disturbingly high, that’s for sure!
I numb with disbelief! The mere fact that masterbation,vibrators etc aren’t mentioned in the Bible is a clear example of how the church has manipulated the people. Roman era priest compiled the biblical books to spin a web of deceit For the bishop/churchwell being. They had amassed huge power over the Ceaser’s welding bishops behind the curtain control. That was just the beginning… this passage is a total piece of crap:
“ You should devote 100% of your sexual energy to your spouse. That means when you are unmarried, you don’t expend sexual energy. Otherwise, by doing so, you are cheating on your future spouse.”
Future what? Are you kidding! This is absolute crapola, one can masterbate and love the wife… one may skip marriage altogether and would’ve missed “ALL of life’s orgasms” following this viewpoint.. ALL of them… this proves this concept as bull crap. God didn’t put a person on earth and not allow them an orgasm because of the unwritten “interpreted viewpoints” this is proven by the mere fact that this post has millions, thousands of people reviewing it. man will always masterbate It’s our God given drive to reproduce, and if not married a god given authorized activity to do so… If women want to they can too… that said, they’re wired a bit different so react differently when they discover they’re spouse doing it too.
So what if one masterbates and is one day off. if the other spouse asks for sex.. says no? It’s the exact same thing being taught by the church that we must listen to the wife when she says no. I’m hot & ready and she says no I’m not into it tonight. But I’m supposed to sit tight and wait? Or is it I masterbated and I’m saying no? Same outcome..
people get confused by the wicked teachings of shame and guilt and it become crazy. That said, the Bible doesn’t say no and people who want to spin a story find ways to confuse people, hence, the problem.
Just admit, it’s not clearly stated and therefore a God given right, otherwise God who knows ALL would’ve address the issue. He designed man, understood what he was doing, or otherwise we’d have to admit he made a mistake..
Let’s asshh u me he didn’t and know masterbation is a task that needs moderation but is good, good for the person and the relationship when done Moderately…
I could go in forever and support it too, but for this thread I’m going to stop. Stop now and never listen to this bull crap or other religiously confused people.. feel free to respond, I do t want to stifle your opinion..
Well, vibrators are a fairly recent invention, so of course they’re not mentioned in the Bible. Neither is porn, sexting, sex-chats, cam-girls, etc..
What is mentioned is that sex is supposed to be shared between two spouses.
And the “if you don’t get married, you miss all of life’s orgasms” isn’t much of an argument. You could also say “if you don’t get married, you’d miss out on sex, so sex outside of marriage can’t be wrong”. You could use that to justify threesomes, murder, or anything else under the sun that you wouldn’t get to do if you didn’t do it.
As you said, God has given most of us a drive to reproduce – however masturbation doesn’t reproduce, so it doesn’t meet that need. In fact, it’s biologically different – it doesn’t produce as much prolactin, making you feel less sexually sated. So, masturbation doesn’t seem to be the solution to being sexually frustrated. Rather, I think sexual desire is designed to drive us to find a spouse. That seems to be the most plausible reason to me. For example, if you’re hungry, you don’t go eat rocks. Would it make you feel full – perhaps, but it won’t sate your hunger. Maybe if you eat just a few rocks – in moderation so that you can still eat a meal when it’s available – that would be alright, right? I mean, God didn’t say not to eat rocks. So, that must be okay.
But of course, eating rocks is not healthy. And I’d argue that masturbation isn’t healthy for your relationship either. It will not sate you, and it teaches you to be selfish, and you miss out on learning self-control preferring instant gratification instead.
Rather, we’re told that the fruits of the spirit include: patience, faithfulness and self-control. All of which I’d argue are better practiced by waiting for your spouse, rather that masturbation.
If one person realizes the false hood regarding masterbation then this conversation is a win..
First be clear, I love my wife, Cherish her, and support her. it may not be the anti masterbation opinion and that’s fine, but we have a strong & supportive marriage. They may not like this but that’s okay, fact is you too can masterbate and have a strong marriage.
High desire spouse being denied is just as wrong as low desire spouse NOT stepping up.. It’s a two way street if one doesn’t work at it that’s their choice.
Finding peace and accepting a balance is good.
The biblical perspective is a skewed manipulation, not Jesus, he speaks of being good to people and that worthy, but the church as an entity has goals to create more followers exspands power which equals more money & more power. A very flawed setup. Sex is power so they jumped on it fast. Like really fast, like Roman Empire attacking legion fast.
Knowledge comes by digging a little further than Wikipedia and discovering who wrote the anti sexual passages the church uses and what the goal was.. yes “goal” man is man and they write these out of their own insecurities and sexual inconsistencies and desires. One might see the sexual frustration Paul has and why he may have wrote these passages when you dig a bit further. Read these books and make your own decisions. not just listening from a person spouting biblical quotes from “possibly” confused Roman citizens from 800-2000 years ago and talking about eating rocks? ( previous comment) read the books and be free.
Book 1:
God Sex and Conservative church
by Tina schemer Sellers
Book 2:
The God Virus by Darrel Ray
Book 3:
Sex & God how religion distorts sexuality by Darrel Ray
At least start a conversation so both parties understand masterbation and it’s freedom
Sorry, can you clarify? Your main argument for why masturbation isn’t a problem is because the New Testament is unreliable and you need to read books by other authors in order to see what God should have put in the Bible?
My Point? Masterbation Is fine. People should make their own decisions based on self research and not be shamed & guilted by the “churches” mission of power. God didn’t write the passages Man did. Jesus NEVER mentions masterbation so the church uses this vague missing piece In the man written book to extrapolate a message fitting their goals.
As did man wrote the books listed. They too felt called to write. Let’s add two more books so one can make a decision of masterbation for themslves.
Jesus didn’t say no, never mentions it, man wrote the biblical passages, which adds a level of Human flaw weakness to the subjected Interpretations .
I’m not here to convince you Jay, just giving a fair perspective for those who want to field the question for themselves. I definite don’t expect you to jump in and say thank you you saves the thread. This is the for those who want a different perspective, a shift worth reviewing, clarity other than the threads main shame guilt perspective.
.
Book 1
Four Disturbing Questions with One Simple Answer. Tim Sledge
Book 2
How to Live a Meaningful Life, Tim Sledge
Books that help understand some of Man written religion based Ideas Use knowledge to make descion for self.
No, I got your point, but you’ve posed no argument except to say mine is false and that we can’t trust the Bible. That’s not really an argument, it’s just saying you disagree with my arguments. In short – you have given no reason why masturbation isn’t wrong other than you don’t believe it is.
Apologies, it’s just a secondary view point masterbation is fine in moderation.
I’m not trying to convince you, you’re sold on your position, that’s fine. Its a thought board by design, To argue would mean I’m trying to convince you but I’m not, people can Read The books view multiple podcast & decide for themselves.
But you haven’t contributed anything to the discussion up until this point. You’re not going to convince anyone without a reason. You believe masturbation is fine in moderation – but why? What are you basing that belief on? You say the church is manipulating people, but haven’t brought forth a single argument to show otherwise. You say you’re numb with disbelief about my post, but haven’t offered a single reason for why I’m wrong. You suggested a bunch of books, but haven’t given any sort of reason why anyone should read them. What argument are you expecting those books to raise? Not a position – I mean, that’s clear, but what’s the actual base reason? Is there one other than “because everyone deserves orgasms”?
“But you haven’t contributed anything to the discussion up until this point.”
FYI: You seem to want me to “argue a point” for Public display on your “thoughts page“.. it was just my thoughts. I read multiple books attaining a satisfactory analysis once done. You asked me to share my thoughts so I did. That’s all.
1. Contributed: Yes I contributed the opposing view, I ask people continue to read books then ask questions. I did and found answers. This is not the place to absorb all the answers. It’s a jumping point.
“You’re not going to convince anyone without a reason. You believe masturbation is fine in moderation – but why? What are you basing that belief on?”
2. Convincing: convincing will be done through the personal journey reading books & learning. My convincing will be when people decide to seek the books knowledge and find answers for themselves. The curious will seek knowledge, just like we read the Bible today to find answers to questions. Read interpret make assessments. This thread & the books are a jumpstart for someone to knowledge. Masterbation is huge topic for websites so why not read all books & learn? Make self educated decisions? We’d need a webinar to make this a web based debate. (Not happening) just in case you suggested it… LOL. It be exciting, I’d give you point, cause you have a nice website.. Call it the “Uncoveringintimacy Masculine Masterclass Discovery Date to Destiny” live webinar..!
“You say the church is manipulating people, but haven’t brought forth a single argument to show otherwise.”
3. Masterbation as a huge topic, centuries, and the church view takes time to explore, it took time to process the knowledge for myself aswell. One can read Roman history and interpret for self how bishops wielded power and shaped the political, cultural and the social-economical landscape. It’s there if one peeks behind the curtain.
“You say you’re numb with disbelief about my post, but haven’t offered a single reason for why I’m wrong.”
I apologize, I jumped in a bit harsh, I could’ve been less emotional in my delivery, for this I hope you can forgive me. My bad. I have offered a counter point, but it’s in the books people need to read, for those who seek knowledge will gain understanding. It’s a journey, I did it and found a balance with God, Jesus and the Church’s goals. , start with those 5 books, seek Podcasts and find your own balance readers.
“You suggested a bunch of books, but haven’t given any sort of reason why anyone should read them.”
Same answer as above, reading equals knowledge. Knowledge allows one to make peace, otherwise we only read other people’s opinions and never decide for ourselves. Knowledge is power. I’d hope you’d want people to be knowledgeable in their decisions. Read all view points and grow?
“What argument are you expecting those books to raise? Not a position – I mean, that’s clear, but what’s the actual base reason? Is there one other than “because everyone deserves orgasms”?”
Base reason: knowledge is power, books enlighten those who read, and allow for debates or just live with those answers and find peace. , I found answers to questions I sought, I gather others will too.. a position might be discovered by someone who read, the books, depends on the reader I guess?
And of course the final “sneaky question” you’re posing, as assumptive that “all deserve something” I liked it..,
“because everyone deserves an orgasm” I hope those who seek will find their answers through ALL the books & knowledge they obtain. I guess based on your question “find a happy fulfilling orgasm?” Not sure I’d say it like that, but since question was posted in such a way I’ll answer in that fashion.
I just hope people decide to explore, learn, and grow through all avenues so they can find peace through self discovery. In the world we live in today makes learning a tedious process, takes time and dedication. I’ll confess it’s a curios journey traveling through Roman History to modern day sexual understanding. Ugh, maybe that why I’m still responding, it took so long and I wanted to speak it… but in the end people can find peace.. their own peace with self, God, Jesus and the physical Church.
I went through the reading knowledge journey and came out happily married, fulfilled & satisfied. I’ve found a peaceful balance between Catholicism and human need.
Masterbation in moderation.
Thanks for chatting, I’ll let you close and have the final post, to return the forum to your mission. It was really nice sharing different ideas and exploring new opportunities for growth.
Keep up the good work
I notice that there wasn’t much said as it relates to women withholding sex from men as a reason that may drive a married man to masturbate. I would like to submit that it is a very real situation in marriages and man can become tired of having to act in submission to his wife’s demands just to ensure that he can have sex with her later.
That has been brought up a ton of times in the comments, and I never believed it. For one – it’s an excuse. Someone else’s actions aren’t a justification for your sin.
But last month I ran a survey and guess what we found! Almost zero correlation between solo masturbation and sexual frequency. So, no, it’s not true. You might have rationalized it to believe it is, but neither the data, nor theology supports it.
You are responsible for your actions, not your wife.
Its not sin.. thats a biased religious veiw. A study/survey done in a closed religious group is skewed towards the view point if religion. Done in moderation masturbation is fine. If a wife holds out then have a conversation and work out the options. A hold out is a sign of disagreement between the two parties thats the issue not the end reault of holdout.
A belief in sin is a religious view, which is inherently biased towards using things as God intended. If you don’t believe in God, then you have no basis to judge whether or not something in sinful, as sin is merely not doing what God wants. So, yes, this is a religious view, because I’m a religious person, as are the vast majority of my readers.
If you want a view of sexuality that doesn’t include God, there are many resources out there for you.
Sin is just a Christianese term for an immoral/unethical action. You make the same unfortunate mistake that many Christians make by ascribing some kind of metaphysical significance to sin that it doesn’t have. If sin is “merely not doing what God wants” then sin may as well be arbitrary. What is your system of ethics?
Again, its human to masturbate, it just is. Apply what spiritual meaning that suits you and live by it but one can be spiritual and masturbate enjoy it married men it’ll be fine. Women too. About 80% of the so called male church goers masturbate. Big number. it will be done till the end times and beyond. Its human. Spiritual beings wont crush you in the great beyond, its human enjoy yourself.
Just because many people do it, doesn’t make it right.
Masturbation is not a religious activity its human activity to feel food and be human. man it seems has decided to control it as does most all religions. Its not wrong…religious or not
I don’t really see how a Christian can not see everything as a religious activity as our lives are to be living sacrifices…
And it’s not about control, it’s about safeguards. We tell children not to play with fire, not because we want to control them, but because we don’t want them to get burnt.
yes we agree, we tell them not to play with fire, but we teach them to use fire when needed, for cooking food, for keeping warm. we should also be teaching them to enjoy their God given bodies, pleasure when appropriate,. use with careful moderation. enjoy your masturbation. yes we agree it seems.
No, we do not it seems.
Thankfully, there’s no need to agree.
True, we don’t need to agree, only difference is I use my power to emboldened people to feel good about themselves in their human body and his website uses the Bible to “bend” the impressions and lead people down a different path. all good, hopefully a few people, cant save them all will read the preceding conversations and form an opinion, if they’re lucky.
At least it seems we agree that my approach is biblical and yours isn’t.
Wrong! Again my friend you manipulate the people, twisting and injecting my reply with conjecture and your opinion. Nice political work, I hold no anger there but frustration towards clarity and understanding for the people.
People: Read the long list, read the bible, read fact based studies and decide for yourself not interpretations of others. You have a great and powerful brain to make decisions with on your own, so please dont use just one website to make a deduction. I and a huge majority of humans WILL go to heaven. (I deduce based on data before me not unbalanced conjecture from one thinking)
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Remember moderation is the key, thats the issue at hand anything done obsessively can become an issue but otherwise it’s not ALL inherently wrong. We learn to play with fire for goodness, heat, eating, comfort, (moderation) if not we could get burned. Masturbation in moderation thats the key, not so much that it disrupts you marital heath & connection, but enough to be heathy for you and your partner. That “enough” will look different for each person’s sexual drive God gave him and his partner. One person with hi libido will have a different need than a low libido person. Both God given libido’s and depending on the spouse God gave them a different amount of “moderation” of masturbation needed. Its not to complicated overall..
Oh, I agree entirely that people shouldn’t base their beliefs on what I say – they should act in accordance with their convictions.
But here you show two principles that you hold that are not biblical:
1) That the majority will go to heaven – the Bible makes it clear that few will. Not saying you won’t, just saying that to claim most will is unbiblical.
2) That moderation is good – The Bible never condones moderation of vices. We are to flee from temptation, immorality, sin. Not enjoy just enough that it doesn’t obviously ruin your life.
Again, You claim my views aren’t biblical but yet mine are, Never is masturbation addressed in the bible and you know it. What you would present would be “vague” conjecture not facts like 10 commandments, those are powerful. Thats a whole other road to go down.
People should live the Bible’s values and combine God’s given human drive to live both in a healthy and pleasing way. I believe the bible is a powerful wonderful book full of wisdom, I just see through some it differently when God’s design interests with vagueness. Clarity comes with research.
1. You never asked me what majority is or is defined by? Is it one thing? Or all sins compiled? Are we judged by one evil, like killing or by many things? This feed is not the place of course to figure it out, people decide for yourself. Enjoy your god given drive, some studies have shown 80% of Catholic men have masturbated, God wont judged you for by living God’s design, he designed our bodies for it. Is one study the end all, no, but at least it’s one step to clarity. We could dive into the millions of books and literature but why, people can read on kindle or google medical journals and discover the physiology of moderation balance and pleasure, its out there for your pleasure reading.
2. Yes moderation is good, you’re skewing again. masturbation is not a “vice” as you again skew it as bad, your viewing from one perspective that its bad. I might even argue that viewing it as only bad is an injustice in itself? In moderation your living a God given drive. Eating to much is gluttony, I agree, we agree, but eating a balanced meal (sex with spouse) and on occasion eating a crispy cream donut doesn’t destroy your physical body, or your marriage. Plus eating a donut is NOT a vice or a sin…
Moderation is the key in folks. 😀
That said, if you lean towards living your life from just the biblical view you can, both ways are fine. Everyone should choose by an informed perspective. In this case alot of the world see the value in living by God’s design some live by the bibles written form which leaves some issues vague and open for statistical discussions. Enjoy folks..
Plus if you get the covid shot you get a free donut everyday for the rest of the year! I dont have a krispy cream near me so no donut! 😬
Never claimed it was, actually, I’ve continuously upheld that it’s never explicitly mentioned. There’s no argument to win here.
A majority is over 50%. I don’t think anyone has ever questioned that definition. That’s not really up for personal interpretation.
You’re showing your lack of biblical knowledge again. Any sin, no matter how small, is worthy of death. It’s only through repentance and forgiveness that all of our sins are washed away. That requires both a character that acknowledges that they deserve death and that Jesus is Lord and sacrificed Himself for us. This is what the majority of the world will not do, and why they will be judged based on their sins – again, which a single one will damn them for.
This is a standard logical fallacy – showing a majority do something isn’t proof that it’s good. Case in point, the majority of people aren’t Christians, yet I don’t believe they are correct.
Same logical fallacy. Years ago all the available literature, scientists, philosophers, etc. told us the world was flat. It doesn’t make it true. Today, everyone is telling us that boys can be girls and visa-versa. That doesn’t make it true either. Truth isn’t voted on.
I don’t think this is an adequate comparison at all. From my perspective, I think a better one would be having a doctor perform heart surgery on you is a good, beneficial thing (assuming the surgery is necessary), but performing it on yourself is not. Another would be drinking seawater when you’re dying of thirst – sure, it might seem like it will quench your thirst, but it doesn’t, because it’s not what you’re body needs. In fact, it will kill you in the end. Or, only eating Krispy Cream donuts for the rest of your life – it’s only one a day, so that’s moderate, right? Probably has enough calories to sustain you from an energy perspective, but it’s not healthy. I think those are better analogies.
Having solo sex releases the same hormones as sex. You release dopamine, which trains your brain to see self-pleasure over shared pleasure. You release oxytocin which makes you feel artificially connected, without a partner. You release less prolactin though, which means your sex drive isn’t as sated by the activity as partnered sex, which isn’t surprising, because it’s not what God intended (like eating a donut instead of a meal).
From my perspective, you’ve not made a strong argument here, a bunch of logical fallacies and analogies, which don’t prove anything. But, I agree, let people do their own research, make their own decision and follow their own convictions.
Okay, I won’t argue with you, I’m presenting real time data your viewing mostly if not only the Bible which is fine but I’ll let people see what I’ve seen and then review what we’ve said. let the people see all the options.
People should make their own decisions based on self research and not be shamed & guilted by the “churches” mission of power. God didn’t write the passages, “Man did”. Jesus NEVER mentions masturbation so the church uses this vague missing piece In the man written book to extrapolate a message fitting their goals.
Jesus never mentions it, man wrote the biblical passages, which adds a level of Human flaw to the subjected Interpretations.
I’m not here to convince you, just giving a fair balanced perspective for those who want to field the question for themselves.
You haven’t presented any data at all, merely an opinion without any argument. All you’ve done is say you don’t agree with my opinion and that mine is only an opinion – which I agreed with. But, I also have spent multiple blog posts explaining my opinion, the principles it’s founded on and the experiences that prove its validity. You have shared nothing of value yet other than your opinion (which you haven’t clearly stated), logical fallacies (everyone does it) and ad hominem attacks against me.
I removed the list of books as I refuse to direct people to resources I haven’t vetted. I did put them on my reading list though. I’ll allow any thoughtful dialogue, discourse, discussion, even argument – if you have one. So far I haven’t seen if you do, and if you can’t present even a single coherent argument without pointing to 5 books (another logical fallacy – an appeal to authority), then I don’t think you actually know what you believe.
Intimacy uncovered edits conversations! He doesn’t allow real facts to interfere with the conversation. The above conversation was changed to trick people, classic way of manipulating the topic. Website should be titled “intimacy coverup” When masturbation moderation and support for the approach was presented he hide the facts. I have saved my original post and see it personally.
1. You kept telling me “I haven’t proved my point”
2. When I did, or presented support of mastubation moderation intimacy uncovered (intimacy cover up) filtered changed my submission.
You should be ashamed of yourself and now I personally feel vindication feels good.
No – I removed a list of books, and I explained that I did and why I did so.
You haven’t proved a point yet. Just spouted a bunch of logical fallacies:
1) “Everyone is doing it so it must be okay”
2) “Read these books” – appealing to an authority that we both don’t recognize
3) Now you attack me using names and insults
Detail your arguments, and I’m more than willing to discuss them, but if you continue to descend into insults and cheap shots still without any substance, I’m going to eventually decide you add nothing to the conversation.
Leviticus 15:16 most likely refers to masturbation. Most English translations render it as a reference to nocturnal emissions, but the original Hebrew is broader than that. It does not specify nocturnal emissions. The Hebrew words used have a broader range that can include solo masturbation, nocturnal emissions, or whatever else can cause emissions of semen.
How do we know it doesn’t refer only to nocturnal emissions? Because Deuteronomy 23:10 does specifically refer to nocturnal emission. The Hebrew words that specify nocturnal emission that appear in Deuteronomy 23:10 don’t appear in the Leviticus verse.
In both cases an emission of semen is grouped with menstruation and sexual intercourse as something that renders a person temporarily unclean to enter the tabernacle. Nobody would suggest that menstruation and sexual intercourse are inherently sinful.
How does this change your views?
Well, you just argued that something making you temporarily unclean doesn’t mean that thing is sinful. I would assume you believe the opposite is also true – that just because something makes you temporarily unclean, that doesn’t mean the act is automatically not sinful.
So, then this has no bearing on the argument at all.
Is menstruation sinful? Of course not. Neither is normal intercourse between spouses (I’m sure you’ll agree on that at least).
The reference to masturbation in Leviticus 15:16 is evidence against the notion that the Bible is silent on the issue. It is mentioned and no moral condemnation is attached to it. It is a totally neutral reference.
The only biblical case against it that people can possibly make against it is by using a gross misreading of Matthew 5:28.
Only in extra biblical Jewish writings is there a condemnation of masturbation, on the grounds that it wastes seed. If you know anything about how the male reproductive system works you’ll know that the idea that men have a finite quantity of seed is a laughable one. If you’re going to go with a Catholic-style Every Sperm Is Sacred doctrine then fine, but few will agree with you.
For married people, if masturbation is causing someone to stop having frequent sex with their spouse then I really don’t think they had a good sex life to begin with. Masturbation just doesn’t compare to the real thing.
For single people, an illustration: the Greek philosopher Diogenes was once caught masturbating in public (something I wouldn’t recommend; Diogenes was rather eccentric). When he was asked what he had to say for himself he said “If only I could relieve my hunger by rubbing my belly”. Masturbation is a subpar replacement for the real thing. But if single people must spend years of decades enduring a sexual desert wherein are fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought then who are you to begrudge it to them?
I disagree that Leviticus 15:16 certainly references masturbation. You argued that Deuteronomy 23:10 is about nocturnal emissions, but it’s not clear that that’s what it’s about either. In Hebrew, it just says “a happening of the night”, which is incredibly vague. Considering it comes right before a law to make sure you cover your feces when going to the bathroom, it could simply be about accidentally urinating or defecating at night, which I think would make more sense considering there’s absolutely no mention of anything sexual anywhere else in that chapter. But does talk about running an orderly camp – in which things like dysentery tend to be a reality.
And I agree with you on one point – masturbation doesn’t compare to the real thing. It’s a perversion of the real thing. Where sex should bring closeness, caring and focuses on the pleasure of another, masturbation is about selfishness and instant self-gratification. Masturbation isn’t merely sub-par – it’s a poison. Why would you want singles to practice selfish, instant self-gratification for years prior to getting married? That is a recipe for disaster. I think it’s much better to practice self-control and patience and to focus on God’s intent for sex rather than simply trying to fill a void for intimacy with something that doesn’t meet that need at all.
Good point about Deuteronomy 23:10. Now that you mention it, it could very well be a reference to urination/defecation instead. English translations usually go with the nocturnal emission option. But well, let’s not get started on English translations.
But, if you’re right, then doesn’t that strengthen my point about Leviticus 15:16? The verse simply specifies an emission of semen. We know it doesn’t describe an emission that happens during sexual intercourse, because verse 18 describes that. It doesn’t specify a nocturnal emission or solo masturbation, just an emission of any kind. The wording is broad enough to include both of those things, as well as any other situation in which an emission could occur. I think that’s the point. It’s a catch-all meant to cover any kind of emission outside of sexual intercourse. The writer would have certainly known what masturbation was, and here it is grouped with menstruation and intercourse as simple facts of life. No moral condemnation. What sane person would conclude that menstruation is a sin from this passage? No, its simply a matter of Jewish ceromonial law. Jews couldn’t enter the temple/tabernacle for a certain period of time after any of the mentioned bodily discharges occurred.
As you said, it’s not specific. A lack of condemnation for a general case is not the same as an allowance for a specific case.
What is not forbidden is allowed. Basic law.
Even so, the point of the verse is “if you masturbate then make sure you clean up after and don’t go the the tabernacle that day”. If it was wrong then this would have been a wonderful time to instead tell people not to do it at all. Instead it’s assumed that men will do it, just as women will menstruate. It will happen and there is no moral condemnation when it does.
I have refuted the notion that there is no biblical mention of masturbation. Now, kindly acknowledge that I am right.
What exactly are you looking for here? It sounds like you’re using a weird inversion of the argument from silence. “Because there isn’t a specific command that tells us it isn’t wrong then it is a sin”. So, basically, everything is a sin unless otherwise noted.
And I thought that attitude was only seen in caricatures of puritan types.
I would call that legalism.
You’re still basing your argument on the assumption that that verse is about masturbation, which I don’t think you can prove.
You still haven’t shown that it has. So, no. I refuse to acknowledge something I believe to be false without evidence to the contrary.
To help people live out biblical principles in their daily lives.
Again, this is a very legalistic view. Stop looking for a checklist. The list of rules in the Bible are like fences – they tell you when you’re definitely over the line, but in reality, the sin generally happens well before that point. If you decided to break into your neighbours house, legally, you haven’t crossed a line until you’re in the house (or at least trying to gain entry). But ethically, you’ve already crossed into sin when entertained the thought about it.
But as I’ve always said – act in accordance with your own convictions. If you don’t agree with my stance – don’t follow it. Unsubscribe. Live your life. See if it improves your relationships. I don’t require anyone to believe as I do. But, if you’re still struggling with the concept and think maybe there’s something to it, I’m here to continue to hash it out if you like.
We are literally dealing with a verse that appears in a part of the Bible known as the Law Of Moses.
Legalism is kind of warranted here.
So, if Leviticus 15:16 doesn’t refer to masturbation then what does it refer to? I agree that it refers to nocturnal emission, but I disagree that it refers only to that. The Hebrew is broad enough to encompass both, which I don’t think is an accident.
I disagree. The question of what is moral vs immoral goes well beyond Mosaic Law.
What you have is a verse that might include masturbation and it states that it makes you ritually unclean. You’re are then taking that as permission to masturbate, which is a gross overreach as I see it. That would be like me telling my son that if he eats too much he’s going to get a stomach ache, and then him taking that permission to steal candy from a store because I mentioned food, which might include candy, and I never mentioned stealing while we were talking about food.
The point is, frankly, it doesn’t matter if it does refer to masturbation or doesn’t. You’re conflating two separate things – ritual uncleanness and sin. And you’re ignoring the fact that abstaining from masturbation teaches self-control, patience (fruits of the spirit), whereas masturbation teaches self-indulgence, instant gratification, a lack of self-control, as well as teaching you to learn to orgasm in a very specific way, which doesn’t feel at all like sex. It sets you up for additional struggles in future marriage that don’t need to be there while at the same time providing no real benefit other than “it feels good”.
1. My point is that it is false that the Bible says nothing about masturbation. The one probable reference to it is neutral, rather than negative. The writer of the Mosaic Law knew what it was, accepted that it would be happening and only saw fit to mention it in conjunction with cleaning up afterwards and ritual cleanliness for temple entrance. It is mentioned there and nowhere else because it was of little importance. Even menstruation has more regulations around it than masturbation. Everything that the law of Moses considers a sexual sin is explicitly outlined as such. What does the verse refer to if not masturbation?
2. Accepting that, the only other biblical case you can make against it is through a gross misreading of Matthew 5:28.
I do not believe your other arguments against it are biblical or valid. They are based on the same quasi-gnostic life denial that your particular strain of theology is steeped in. The Second Coming did not happen in 1844. The Sabbath was created for man. Man was not created for the Sabbath.
I honestly shouldn’t be surprised that you consider masturbation a vice, since you belong to the same church that produced Dr. John Harvey Kellogg.
Self-indulgence is only wrong if its a vice to begin with or if you overindulge.
1) You haven’t proved that at all, you just keep trying to assert that you have without any additional evidence.
2) I didn’t mention Matthew 5:28, you keep bringing it up as a straw-man attack.
3) Every denomination has its fringe believers. I’ve written against Dr. Kellogg and his beliefs – they are not the same as mine at all. Dr. Kellogg believed all sex zapped your “vital life force”, which is clearly ridiculous. You bring it up is either an ad-hominem attack or the bigotry of lumping all people in a denomination together based on one fringe believer. I wouldn’t accuse you of being a racist, misogynistic and a porn addict simply based on the username you chose.
Also, you should learn your church history if you’re going to attempt to use it as a weapon. It wasn’t Seventh-Day Adventists who believed the Second Coming was going to happen in 1844 because they didn’t exist yet. That was a prediction from William Miller, a Baptist preacher. Now, the Adventists did came out of the confusion that spread due to the events not unfolding as he predicted and wanting to figure out what actually happened, but they came from many denominations. The denomination wasn’t founded for another 2 decades, so to try and place some sort of blame on Adventists for the false predictions of a Baptist pastor and followers from nearly every denomination at the time is either from ignorance or malicious deceit.
The difference between your beliefs and Kellogg’s is a one of degree, not of kind.
They’re both from the same root of puritan life-denial.
As you yourself admit, the Miller’s failed predictions provided the background for the founding of the SDA Church. The fact that it wasn’t formally started for another 20 years is a matter of semantics. The SDA Church adopted the conveniently unfalsiable belief in a heavenly Investigative Judgement that started in 1844. That isn’t real either.
Hardly – the reason matters. For example, if I say I believe you shouldn’t have sex before marriage because I believe God intended it for marriage, I believe sex outside of marriage is problematic for both yourself, your partner and potential children, and I want what’s best for you,, that’s radically different than saying I think you shouldn’t have sex before marriage because statistically black Americans have more children outside of marriage than any other race in America and I want to reduce the black American population (not my view, just to be clear) – those are two radically different things, even though they appear to have the same guidance (no sex outside of marriage). Conflating the two, which is akin to what you’re doing, would be to claim all Christians, Muslims or anyone with a “no sex outside of marriage” mindset must also be racist – which is of course false.
Also, again, you should check your history – the puritans were incredibly sex-positive. They just also held that sex is sacred and should be confined to marriage. But they saw sex as a right of marriage – during the puritan area and in their towns, you could bring your spouse to civil court for not having sex with you.
As for your attacks on the SDA church – well, you sort of painted yourself into a corner there admitting it was unfalsifiable (I’m assuming that’s what you meant with the typo) and then claiming it isn’t real. So, that’s merely your opinion. But I can understand how someone with your viewpoints would hate a denomination founded on a desire to understand the Bible better. Either way, I don’t see how this any bearing on the discussion – just another ad hominem attack. You consistently use logical fallacies when arguing which doesn’t lend credence to your argument.
When the Puritans ran England they closed the theatres, banned Christmas, prohibited amusements on Sundays, and overall made the place miserable for everyone else. It is no wonder that as soon as Cromwell died the English people decided they had enough of the Puritans.
Kellogg also believed that sex and masturbation was “problematic for both yourself, your partner and potential children, and I want what’s best for you”. He just took that belief a lot farther than you do.
Anyway, what does Leviticus 15:16 refer to?
Another logical fallacy – you brought up the puritans, I proved your point wrong, now you’re trying to reframe it as if the puritans were my argument and discrediting them.
And another logical fallacy – as I stated, Kellogg’s beliefs were about sex, irregardless of the context of that sex. My views are distinctly different. I don’t believe masturbation is problematic. I believe solo masturbation is. Very different. You’re conflating the two in order to try and discredit my ideas via Kellogg.
We’ve already hashed out Leviticus 15:16. Unless you have more information to bring forward, I don’t see that as going anywhere.
You seem to be at a dead end.
No, you haven’t explained what you think the verse means. The only thing you’ve explained is that you disagree with what I said that it means.
I think you did a fine job explaining it with “The verse simply specifies an emission of semen.” No more, no less.
Does “an emission of semen” include masturbation? Why or why not?
We know that regular sexual intercourse is not in mind here, so what are the circumstances that the writer has in mind? Is it a nocturnal emission? I certainly think it includes that but isn’t limited to that. If that was in mind then that would be specified. The language used is deliberately broad so as to cover any instance of emission that happens outside of sexual intercourse. Solo masturbation, nocturnal emission, and any other instance would all be included.
You’re not asking any new questions here. We’ve already been through this. It might, or it might not. It’s not specific, as you said. This verse is not a strong argument either way. You say it’s deliberately broad, but that’s another logical fallacy – assuming you know the mind of the author a few millennia dead from the other side of the world. The fact is, you have no idea and neither does anyone else. We only have guesses. It’s unspecified, and you can’t use it to make a specific case.
Plus, we don’t use a single verse to build a doctrine from – that would be a bad practice. Instead, we look at the entire scope of the Bible. The entirely of the Bible points towards God intending sex between two people as a committed unit. We can also look at biology, which tells us that sex is a very powerful act that should be safeguarded. On top of that, as I’ve already mentioned, we have the fruits of the spirit, which masturbation works against.
All in all, you’re hanging your entire argument on a single vague verse that you say implies something that you want it to, to the exclusion of the rest of the Bible. It’s not a strong argument at all and continuing to harp on the single verse just shows me that this is the only argument you have, and it’s not convincing in the least, even if I accept your premise, which I don’t believe is a strong one since you have no supporting verses.
Just admit that I’m right.
You are trying to weasel your way out of doing that by setting the parameters in such a way that you automatically win. Sorry, I don’t accept those parameters.
I don’t find your case against masturbation to be very convincing. But that’s its own can of worms. It’s ultimately something that is several steps removed from the first step of figuring out whether the Bible even mentions it. You said, and many others say, that the Bible does not mention masturbation. I have refuted that. Now it is time for you to recognize that.
You already decided what the conclusion was going to be before you read the texts. It’s ok for you to admit that the premises and assumptions you started with lead you to conclude that the Bible condemns it. Nobody reads the Bible or any other text without any pre-existing assumptions. That’s just how the human mind works.
But I don’t believe you are right. Anyways, I understand your stance. I used to have it and even argued as you do. But, now that I know the truth through study, my own experience and the experiences of hundreds of couples, I cannot uphold that view any longer. It neither makes biblical nor logical sense. That’s why you’ll not convince me – I’ve already been converted from your way of thinking. Fool me once…
Maybe one day when you have more experience you’ll see it too.
We been married 43 yrs. My wife was virgin then. Not even any oral until a year or so after marriage. As time went on, she grew out of her shyness and started enjoying sex. She would perform oral on me a lot, sometimes around where we could get caught. All during this time I would masturbate even with her laying beside me and she would join in. At times we would do it together. As time moved on, and after her medical issues came about,her fun times have slowed down. I am on pain meds a lot and also deal with spinal cord issues. Just tonight she was blowing me and after 20 or so minutes,her mouth was tired and told me that she couldn’t finish by herself….telling me to help her out. She know she is not fulfilling my needs. She knows I masturbate every day and it don’t bother her at all. Sometimes I do it more than once a day. All is not totally lost though, she likes to “clean up the after effect!
Your problem is that your whole position is based on the premise that “You should devote 100% of your sexual energy to your spouse”.
This is false and easily refuted by the fact that human sexuality (in its totality beyond just sexual intercourse) exists long before any spouse comes into the picture. If sexuality was meant only for marriage then people would be functionally asexual until they get married and thru would be functionally asexual after marriage whenever their spouse wasn’t nearby. But we know that is not how it works. Sexuality ha s a much bigger purpose than marriage. People don’t suddenly develop a sexual nature when wedding vows are said. The sexual nature exists long before that. People do not imprint on their spouse like a duckling.
And you can’t “cheat on your future spouse”. The future doesn’t exist right now. There is no such thing as a “future spouse”. If you aren’t married then “spouse” is an empty category, an abstraction. Some currently existing person might someday occupy the currently empty category of “spouse”. But there is no such thing as a future spouse that you can cheat on.
I don’t recall ever claiming people had to be asexual nor that singles didn’t have a sexual nature. Only that they should not engage in sex prior to marriage and with anyone other than their spouse. That doesn’t mean they’re asexual, only not sexually active.
As for cheating on your future spouse – you’ve missed the point by trying to argue a technicality. The point is that going into a marriage with a clean slate sexually is one of the best gifts you can give to your spouse, and if you don’t, then you are robbing them of that gift – cheating them out of it as it were. Sex prior to marriage hurts the relationship – even if it’s with the person you eventually marry.
“I don’t recall ever claiming people had to be asexual nor that singles didn’t have a sexual nature. Only that they should not engage in sex prior to marriage and with anyone other than their spouse”.
That is a distinction without a difference and you know it.
So what does sexuality look like for single people? What are they allowed to do? If sexuality is meant only for marriage then why does the scene have sexual nature exist apart from marriage?
I disagree entirely. The desire to have sex is not the same as having sex. Your argument is that as the LGBTQ+ community: feelings must be made a reality or else they are being oppressed. I do not hold to that belief. One can have a temptation and choose not to meet it either because the base desire is inappropriate (drugs, for example) or because the timing is (pre-marital sex, for example).
Normal heterosexual desire is not the same as disordered homosexual desire.
Again, what does healthy sexuality look like for single people? You claim that you don’t think single people should be functionally asexual but the logical implications of your beliefs lead to exactly that conclusion.
Sexuality exists, is natural, is good, and it exists independently of marriage. That is the proper starting point for figuring out what needs to be done with sexuality. Your beliefs fall apart when it is taken into account that sexuality is independent of marriage. If sexuality was meant only for marriage then why doesn’t sexuality turn on like a switch during the wedding ceremony? Why does sexual maturity happen in the early teens, long before marriage? In ancient Israel they got around that problem by marrying people off shortly after sexual maturity. Unfortunately our society doesn’t work that way. Do you propose we go back to having around marriages at 17? How do you think thay can be achieved?
Why don’t married people imprint on their spouse like a duckling? Why don’t married people never find anyone attractive aside from their spouse (at least as long as their spouse is alive)?
What are single people allowed to do? If sexuality exists outside of marriage then in what way can unmarried people express it?
I’m struggling to understand the question. If you’re saying that one is only a sexual being when having sex, then what am I the majority of time when I’m not actively engaged in sex?
One of the early comments talk about a husbands sexual energy should be 100% focused on his wife, but what if she doesn’t want his sexual attention? To be clear, I am strictly talking about masturbation here, not using that line of logic to justify porn. For some of us, myself included, sex tends to be rare. It’s not uncommon to go 3-4 weeks between sex and for the majority of attempts to be rejected. We could have just spent the entire day together doing something she wanted and had a great day together, then get home and sex comes up and she couldn’t seem to give the idea of sex a colder reception. It’s massively frustrating sexually, and emotionally devastating to constantly be rejected. So what are we to do? I absolutely prefer having sex with my wife over masturbation. Comparing the two is like comparing a bang-snap (one of those fireworks children throw at the concrete for a little pop) to a full firework show. My wife being the firework show in this comparison.
The same reason you don’t just keep adding oil to a car that won’t hold oil – will it work in the short term? Yeah, you can get from A to B, hopefully. But there’s a high chance you’ll damage the engine not to mention it costing you a lot more in the long run than getting the problem fixed.
So, I’d say focus on fixing the underlying problem in the marriage because masturbation is not only not solving the issue, it’s separating you from your wife, teaching you not to look to her for sexual satisfaction – that’s not a good thing to learn in a marriage.
Plus, what you do think is going to convict her more? “I’m just going to keep masturbating until you want to have sex with me” – which tells her that you don’t need her, she’s just a preference, or “I’m willing to wait for you” – which tells her she’s what you really want and nothing else compares.
No one ever said that masturbating solves the problem, it medicates the issue so that the high drive doesn’t have to bother the low drive. If the low drive really wants to fix the issue then they need to stop saying no all the time.
Why would they stop saying no, when you’re taking care of yourself? You’ve given them the rationalization to continue with their sinning. Rather than living intertwined lives where you each rely on the other, you’ve given a clear signal that you don’t need her, that you can take care of yourself. So, why does she need to?
I agree with you, the wife could go a month or more without anything but excuses. If I take care of myself on a regular basis I don’t have to ask and hear NO all the time! Rejection is hard to deal with for several decades.
yup, men and women are different, expecting men to change is wrong. You can’t change your partner and shouldn’t expect them to change. so masturbate, it’s fine. It’s apart of whose we are and have been for millenniums.
Oh, I agree, expecting them to change is wrong. But encouraging them to isn’t. We can change… and those that do are happier for it. So, maybe try dropping your millennia old bad habits and see if it makes you happier.
I’m with you bro. You are not alone. Your comment was completely on point. The travesty in all of it is that no one really knows the solution because women are not robotic. We can’t program them to be the lovers they once were. And society (and religion) expects men to just be without pleasure if your spouse is unwilling. It’s laughable to think about but it’s really sad that many men deal with this. Even though it can be translated that the Bible says the man has a right to take it, what thoughtful, loving husband would do that?! It’s a no win. Can’t have sex, not supposed to masterbate or watch porn, and can’t go get another woman lol smh! If stuck was a person…
Alright – so what is supposed to happen when the wife does not have the sexual drive that the husband does or vice versa? What if they refuse to satisfy and “give in” but rather, they reject or act like they are “too tired” to have sex or sexual activities? I feel like the answer would be : There’s underlying issues that need to be addressed in the relationship… right? From what I have been able to gather, I feel like it is the christian stigma around sex / oral sex / sexual activity in general. She gave me oral when we were dating, then once we got married and had sex (although the first few months were rough b/c she had vaginismus) then she stopped doing oral because she thought it was gross. Wife refuses to see a therapist, and she does NOT have the drive to have regular sex. doesn’t care to ever have oral sex (give or receive). Doesn’t care to explore her sexuality with me at all.
From the research I’ve done, the “normal” amount to have sex is about 1x a week. We have it about 1x a month. Where does the responsibility come in then for my wife to need to take care of me???
Oh, I 100% think this isn’t right and should be addressed, but one person’s sin doesn’t excuse another’s. That’s like when my children are fighting and one says “He hit me!” and the other says “Well, she stole my toy.” That’s not a valid reason to hit your sibling. Your wife’s bad behaviour is not an excuse for yours.
Truth be told the issue is “relationship” and working through the details to find connection. I’ll address masturbation in a moment. We bring ourselves into the marriage and they bring themselves. The combination of the two unappreciated personalities living together can cause kerfuffles and one of the many needs is sex for the men, emotional connection for women. We MUST study “relationships” and how we present ourselves to our spouse so they feel the emotional connect. If we do that then they feel drawn towards us and intimacy increases. They need the connection, its how they’re wired, just like you’re wired for sex. We must change the cace man thinking of “I am who I am” understand our partners thinking patterns and grow from there. There maybe other issues from the past but working through the issues will create empathy and growth, then we get closer to the spouse. It’s a two way street. It can be done, I promise, I did it with success.
Now, masturbation, it’s a byproduct of a sexual man whose been wired by God’s design to highly driven and desirous to procreate, and if the relationship is unstable or the spouse doesn’t truly understand your needs as God wired you then masturbation tends to happen. I believe there’s a reason the Bible hasn’t been written in a way to fairly explain the issues, one that directly addresses the issue. (Which it doesn’t) it’s to complicated so by hints and vague meaning “religious leaders” try to dissuade us from masturbating. Truth be told it’s fine in moderation. If not it can lead us away from the emotional connection we should be funneling into the relationship and towards out spouse.
So I say work on the relationship and in moderation one can masturbate. God made you to need respect, admiration, and to want whole hearted sexuality. In a firm relationship those are achievable. Do the inner work, masturbate in moderation and the world can be yours!
An assertion without justification or rationalization. Just because you say it’s so doesn’t make it true. This is akin to saying “Truth be told, emotional affairs are fine in moderation.”
I also think you’re mistaken that only men need sex and only women need emotional connections. It’s not that one is for men and the other is for women. Both are for both.
Omg, “An assertion without justification or rationalization” rich words. I know I’m right, but explaining to an internet web page isn’t the forum to get it done. To much info in the quiver of knowledge to get it all done. But, directing, leading, helping people “begin” to see their options is good. You show the spiritual angle but its not the whole view. People should look at many viewpoints, real life and spiritual to decipher life and in this case masturbation. There are multiple pillars to a strong relationship but one must be willing to do the work and masturbation is just one of the activities thats is human, personal and fine. But we digress, point being, its fine if you want it to be, its human. Don’t if you want to follow a spiritual view and ignore human design.
Too many arrows in your quiver and you let just one go? A fine claim to say “Oh, I’m so right I can’t even show you”. Let’s hear it. I would love to hear an actual argument because so far you’ve written a lot of words but have said very little.
Of course sex is for both, relationships are complicated and you must start somewhere. The question was “why” and your own stats show that its done regularly, has been for all human time. Challenging the concept is your journey not the truth for all men and to imply it is unfair to those men God gave high drive. Until the people learn and explore the concept and see for themselves “through” other exposure views they may carry more pain then need be. Its a shame you’re a one way mirror of manipulation. 50/50? love your negative spin. I’ll argue the opposite with that 50/50 and be just as correct as your claims. Your interpretation is biased and skewed.
Maybe you didn’t read the stat correctly.
One side of the 50% are those masturbating and didn’t feel it was normal. Another 39% said they don’t masturbate. That doesn’t leave another 50%. You’re standing on an 11% and claiming its small minority is right without justification or rationalization. I think that in order to manage that, you have to be the one standing on the biased and skewed end…
In the above survey by Dr. Achibald Hart, we see 61% of Married Christian Men masturbate (wives, take a look at your husband, over 50/50 chance), and only 13% of them feel it is normal. That means that 53% of all Christian married men are masturbating and don’t feel it is normal. Take another look at your husband if you are a wife there is a 50/50 chance he’s masturbating and doesn’t feel it’s OK, so he might not be sharing it with you.
Last sentence, plain english 50/50. I got it right, you printed it. Your study is also skewed by Archibald heart, he’s reviewing Christian married men, not men in general, so if you add just men who aren’t skewed by Christianity then you got a higher than 50/50% chance he’s masturbating and possibly thinks it’s fine because it is.
The Question is why do Christian men think it’s not good? Could it be that’s because they are skewed by looking through the limited view “lens” of spirituality. If you’re going to limit your understanding of human nature, then yes, you’ll get the result you want but the reality is different.
I’ll see if I can explain the math to you.
So, you have 100 men.
Of them, 61 masturbate.
39 of them don’t. I think it’s safe to say the vast majority of them think it’s not okay to, and that’s why they don’t.
Now, 13 of the 61 who do masturbate think it’s okay, which means 48 of those who do masturbate think it’s not okay.
So, now if you add them together, then you have the 48 from the masturbating group plus the 39 from the non-masturbating group who believe it’s wrong. That’s 87 total out of the hundred.
Now, I agree, my math was off by 2%, you have 13% of the men who agree with you and 87% who do not.
you have 100 christian men interviewed, that is a weighted group of subjects “skewed”thinking masturbation might be bad, that doesn’t address “all men” it addresses men whom lean towards the shaming of human activity. (Masturbation) masturbation is moderation is fine.
Men, do the introspective work and get informed so you can understand human behavior based on all information not just one perspective. Knowledge is power and Only looking through the lens of spirituality doesn’t show the whole truth/perspective to which one can walk through life.
You can say it skews towards shaming human activity. I believe it skews towards men who are the most invested in making a marriage work as they don’t believe in divorce, sex before marriage, or affairs.
Either way, you still don’t have a single argument other than your a priori belief. Whereas I would say, I have spirituality, psychology and physiology on my side.
Yes, you have spirituality, and a website. psychology and physiology are in question. Like politics your spinning your view and shutting out the other few when challenged. It’s OK, the truth is the truth. Men masturbate, and they will for eternity of time, It’s a human activity and it’s natural. It’s been like that as long as man’s walk the earth God designed us that way. When they do the relationship work and expand outside of just a spiritual perspective, garner the knowledge, then they understand how there wives process they under that in moderation masturbation is a normal activity. One has to do the work, I’m not saying it’s easy. I’m Not supporting pornography, that’s whole other subject, it’s the simple act of masturbation of one man without that stimulus that is a natural process. So why do married men masturbate? Because it’s a natural human instinct and two camps label the pleasure. one, bad boy other, natural human activity. Its fine your of the other thought but it doesn’t make yours absolute. I can pull out all the psychology and physiology data show I’m correct too..
Again, an a priori assertion and no reasoning. Let’s see it.
And if I was shutting out others, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion. You’ll many similar discussions on my site.
Classic, when I commented and drove a point home with facts you shut down the post, our conversation, It’s exactly the opposite of what you claimed. That was my point, shaming them to not masturbate isn’t a fair to the men who are curious.
I googled and found these simple supportive points, I’m not saying they’re complete, just the beginning of supportive data.
The most recent edition of the US survey found that 91 percent of men masturbate, whereas just 78 percent of women do so. However, it doesn’t just end there. The survey also found that, on average, men masturbate roughly 15 times per month whereas women only do so about eight times in the same timeframe.
Response by Dr. Rachna Khanna Singh: Thank you for writing to us. Masturbating is a normal activity for any individual, irrespective of their gender, sexuality, or marital status. It is absolutely okay for married men and women to masturbate.
However, this does not mean that their partner is not satisfying them or they are sexually unhappy. Sometimes, masturbating is just something that people like to do even when their sex lives are great. There are couples who often masturbate together as well.
However, if you think that there is still something amiss, then talk to your husband about it very honestly. Here, communication is key.
Remember, that it is okay for married people to indulge in masturbation because sometimes it is just something that they want. It is not about you being bad or them being sexually unhappy
Either the wife was not giving her husband what he “needed” or the husband’s desires were out of proportion for the marriage.
People masturbate for a variety of reasons, including the desire for sexual pleasure, stress release, and to experience private, self-focused sensations without the distraction of a partner. But when people masturbate within the context of an intimate relationship, it can be valuable to understand the motivations behind
Psychology today:
Two main theories have been promoted about the relationship between masturbation and partnered sex. The complementary theory proposes that people masturbate within a relationship in order to enhance their partnered sex. So, masturbation might increase and improve the partnered sex.
In contrast, the compensatory model suggests that people in relationships masturbate as a means to substitute for sexual desires (whether in quantity, quality, or type) that go unmet within the relationship. Alternatively, it has also been suggested that masturbation and partnered sex are two separate, perhaps even parallel behaviors, meeting different needs.
I don’t understand what you mean by “shut down the post”. Your comments are still here, as is the post… Please explain.
As for the rest, you’ve just shared more people’s opinions, not an actual argument.
Exactly my point, everyone has opinions, there are multiple pathways to understanding. “Relationship” is a difficult journey. “why” men masturbate in marriage isn’t easy to express, it’s part primal are societal. Telling men “NO” isn’t an answer, it just frustrates men.
We have Alisa DiLorenzo’s 6 PILLARS OF INTIMACY:
-Emotional
-Financial
-Physical
-Spiritual
-Recreational
-and Sexual Intimacy
If one or two of your needs are off you most likely will have challenges.
Kevin Leman’s Sheet Music: Uncovering the Secrets of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage is just one of many books on intimacy where we discover more reasons why men and woman need to communicate there intimate needs. As well, everyone’s sexual blue prints, family of origins, and life experiences all play a role in there needs. Men typically need to feel respected, admired, and whole heartedly sexually appreciated. We’re sexually motivated creatures by Gods design to reproduce. Women typically want to be known, feel safe in the relationship, and be cherished. If those aren’t meet intimacy falters. As well, men can be chemically driven by the chemistry of high testosterone levels (which women don’t have at the same levels) to release the need. The body loves the chemical release of dopamine and in moderation masturbation reduces that dopamine addiction pattern while supply release. BUT it must be in moderation. To tell men “don’t” release your God given needs to keep the human species alive is not easy to ignore. Society then creates rules for us to follow, to control our chemical needs to reproduce, to reduce the chaos of men running around making babies with every woman they see. But now we create more emotional issue’s between couples, your left with the low drive spouse running the ejacuulation schedule and that is a win/loose situation, not a win/win. If the communication is weak, Aka: win/loose, then a man’s needs start talking. The Catholic Churches does a horrible job of walking people through the journey. Most of the time dodging and ignore the issue. Just “don’t” they say, not a good solution or women serve your husband, another win/loose. But one could argue that one, a make society driven idea is also a win/loose and it come from the Bible! Men masturbate, it’s a drive we have inside. Psychology Today’s view on masturbation, “their” opinion as you say, makes sense. To ignore human need and label solo masturbation as bad doesn’t serve the people who haven’t started on the journey of personal growth in the relationship between there spouse. Sure, men could hold off in a relationship where their is understanding, connection, trust, and the spouse IS fulfilling his sexual blue print needs (fulfilling both parties needs) If not then men will by Gods design seek release. To boil down the “why” is complicated requiring a-lot of self discovery and communication. All of this is exactly like you say, “just someone’s” opinion. Your’s you own, which is good, but as you say, are opinions. Mine, long discussion with my wife about our differing intimate needs, and a-lot of reading to understand why men like sex. I’m driven as a man to want the release and a low drive spouse might not understand or try to understand a mans needs so in the dry spells men and women will masturbate.
Guys, do the personal growth, get vulnerable, learn, discuss. Then masturbation can be done with an understanding on why men and women like it. There you go, two differing opinions on masturbation in moderation verses “No, you’re bad if you do”.
Right or wrong, better or worse? Only you can decide for yourself and your situation. But if you want clarity I say knowledge would be good.
Simply stating there are other opinions, or even what those opinions are is not an argument. You have to show a rationale or evidence to support it. So far you’ve not done that.
The Dilorenzo’s 6 pillars of intimacy doesn’t mention masturbation. I’d argue that if you’re masturbating alone, you are, avoiding intimacy. It’s clearly not promoting intimacy.
Masturbation does not reduce the dopamine addiction pattern – it promotes it. Rather than going to your spouse to have your emotional needs met, you are attempting to meet them yourself. This is akin to drinking saltwater when you’re dying of thirst. It doesn’t solve the problem, merely exacerbates it.
God’s given need is sexual intimacy – not sexual release. You’re mistaking the drive.
Gods given need is sexual intimacy is a fine way of looking at an issue but not all use religion to assess “why” one masturbates and your analysis is heavily bias towards the religious angle. You’re giving an opinion not a fact. Religious perspectives aren’t facts but faith & beliefs. Science is more fact based. Thats why the subject is open to discussion and always will be. That doesn’t mean everyone else is arguing or wrong. Masturbation in moderation is the key If you understand your relationship.
Why do you see other opinions as arguing a point, its just different. If your unwilling to let go of the religious anchor you’ll always have rose colored lenses and possibly not see differences. Your thread asked for reasons.
Curious in Nevada.
Well, I’m a Christian, writing to Christians, so a religious perspective is appropriate.
If you’d like to explore the other lenses, I do go through some of them in other blog posts. This one for example: https://www.uncoveringintimacy.com/masturbation-problem-whether-youre-married-single/
But so far you’re still only arguing my opinion with your opinion – you haven’t given a reason yet or directly challenged any of my reasoning. As such, this has been very unproductive.
Okay, this is good thank you for the clarity, in this case not all eyes that fall on the thread may be Christian and some Christians, like myself, we’re are open to hearing the options.
As you said in the beginning, “I’ve been thinking about this“ which I assume you mean you’ve been looking through the Christian lens and not necessarily exploring the lens of human nature, I’m sharing outside your lens as you asked.
Suggestion: Maybe if the title said “Why do Christian married men masturbate” then the heavily weighted Christian resourced data points would be more accurate to the “Why” in this setting.
As for challenging your view, we’ve been commenting & exchanging ideas, is that wrong? if one is a discerning reader I’m sure they can make comparative analyses and formulate an opinion. If you don’t like my comparative thats okay, but it doesn’t make it wrong, just different. You asked: “Do you know of any other reasons?” you didn’t say “challenge me” or “give me a reason I’m wrong”. I’m answering your call, giving differing reasons.
Human nature isn’t a lense (ie: worldview). It’s a topic in which your worldview will change how you perceive it. So, I don’t know how to respond to “exploring the lens of human nature”. That’s a nonsensical sentence.
So, no, I’m changing the title, because it would be inaccurate. These are my beliefs, as they pertain to all of humanity – not just Christians. I think Christians should more readily understand the concept, but it’s not something that only applies to Christians. The data points only show that Christians are at least struggling whereas the rest of the world has given in to their sinful nature – because why wouldn’t they?
And I still haven’t seen a single reason from you. You just keep basically repeating “I don’t believe this”, but you don’t give a reason why. “Other people do it” isn’t a reason. “They might not be Christian” isn’t a reason. Give an actual reason, then we can discuss it.
I’ve laid out many “reasons” in prior postings, a discerning reader will be empowered if they choose and study. If you don’t like my comparatives that’s okay, but it doesn’t make it wrong, just different. You asked: “Do you know of any other reasons?” you didn’t say “challenge me” or “give me a reason I’m wrong”. I’m answering your call, giving differing reasons.
I still don’t see a reason given, only that you disagree with my views, but not why.
Curious, why not post my response? Guess you once again delete what you don’t like when proven wrong. . Or you can say I didn’t get it which will cover your position. Truth be told I guess we finally figured out the why.. Or at least we both know how it ended. Masturbation in Moderation works.
I didn’t get a response. If I was going to delete what I don’t like, I’d remove the entire thread because it’s unproductive. There are no new thoughts here. I still haven’t seen anything with reasoning in it yet. You haven’t shown why masturbation in moderation is okay, let alone good. So, enough with the childish tactics, insults, and claiming I’m deleting things. Either post a reason, or drop it. I’m done entertaining this mental masturbation. It’s just as unhealthy and unproductive as the topic at hand.
I know for a fact that Jay has previously deleted and even altered comments he doesn’t like. So it’s not surprising if he’s doing it again.
That is true! I have deleted hundreds of thousands of spam comments and links to porn. I’ve also removed some comments that were abusive. And I remove advertisements to products and/or materials I feel are harmful.
However, if I was going to delete comments simply because I don’t like them as many other bloggers do, well, then this entire thread, and others like it, wouldn’t exist.
Good to hear you remove bad things, the conversations the poster was referring too were not abusive, advertisements, products or harmful. The issue he was pointing out was you remove safe and civill debates that effetely challenge your position, that was the issue.
Well, this past year I have to started to remove comments that are just an endless repetition of the same comment by the same person. It doesn’t add to the conversation, there’s nothing of substance in it, so there’s no point in duplicating content.
But, no, I don’t remove productive conversations. You’ll find a large number of comments that challenge my position on the blog. Maybe even most of them. Anyone saying I delete comments that are civil debates clearly hasn’t done their homework. Raphael Tisserand himself has I think the most with 85 comments across the blog. Frankly, he might have written more on my blog this year. Have I removed some of his comments? Absolutely. Some I felt were harmful in terms of content – like when he posts a list of books that are clearly a reading list for recruiting people into the incel movement. I removed that. I removed another because he was recommending people read it, and it turned out to be very sexually graphic. I’m not interested in giving him a platform to peddle such things. Others will simply him being impatient and double posting the same comment multiple times before I could release them from moderation, so I deleted the duplicates so he doesn’t look like an impatient fool asking the same question multiple times. Others are simply the exact same comment as before that I’ve already addressed, but he just keeps asking again and again. So, I removed some of them because it was just noise at that point.
But no, I don’t remove comments because they challenge me. If I did, he’d have zero published comments – not 85 (under this name – he has commented under others in the past as well).
Now, on some other blogs I know where they moderate comments more heavily, he has been blacklisted entirely. Here, he’s just in permanent moderation, which means I have to approve each comment because, well, he can’t be trusted not to post inappropriate material. But, he’s still welcome to civil debate.
Sorry bro, your wrong but I don’t expect you to understand with your biblical quotes driving your message. You quote biblical passages, combine like minded “group think” ( those who like your spin or support it) while ignoring all the other data points (other views) that go against your thinking. No problem, stay in your bubble, I and many others will masturbate, live in loving relationships with our spouse and enter heaven at the end. when we bump into each other I’ll say hello and introduce you to my wife (by my side).. she’ll let you know then how awesome it was living together in a sexual earthly world. It’s amazing to read the thread and know it’s not true if you’ve done the relationship work. Masturbation rocks in a marriage if you want it too.
I don’t see how doing the relationship work would drive you to desire yourself instead of your spouse. That’s an odd sort of relationship work to me.
As for you standing beside your wife in heaven – I think Matthew 22: 23-32 would contradict the idea that she will be your wife in heaven.
What are you saying? Looks as if Rapheal gets it. I scratch my head when you take biblical comments out of context, for example, the English language word (adultery). You’re spinning opinion as fact, like telling people adultery means masturbation when it clearly doesn’t not now or then. The people from the beginning of time knew the words meaning, The word was used by God to say exactly what he meant, not to be vague. Masturbation is not adultery.
Let me briefly help you understand Relationship work so it’s clearer, two people, spouses, work on their relationship, have amazing connections spiritually, emotionally and physically then at the right time (when they decide) they enjoy the pleasures of masturbation (when the time is right for them). Thats how normal healthy non biblically skewed couples make it work. I guess one might use your own words “you too haven’t proven masturbation is bad in strong healthy marriages”. Yes, that’s a shock, I know many who have been successful and balanced in marriage and masturbation. You definitely have proven that “unhealthy couples” who haven’t done the couples work, aka: relationship work, are in need of help.
Matt: 22: 23-32? So no one is saying they’re still wives, there not wives but angels? Do they know each other when they meet? Of course they do, that’s why we in heaven pray for those in purgatory right, so they can enter into heaven. If one didn’t know them they wouldn’t know to pray (or just wait) for them. So once they arrive in heaven they could say, “ Hi angel Anne, my wife from earth, glad your here, let me introduce you to Jay”. Then the two angels, ex human couple, but angels now, would tell you about there success in their relationship and masturbation practices. Thats when we can sit down, float, hover, and share our success like other couples. Who knows, more successful relationships that masturbated might be near by and they can chime in too? It’ll be fun.
As I said, I guess we disagree.
You took an odd turn at the end. Humans do not become angels – that isn’t biblical. Neither is the idea of purgatory. Neither is the idea that there will be humans in heaven prior to judgement – so there’s no one for them to pray for to get to heaven. Catholics teach purgatory, and cartoons teach the idea that humans become angels. If the rest of your theology comes from Catholics and TV, then I can understand how you can be confused.
This teaching of separating sex from a relationship is exactly what the world wants, it’s been pushing this mindset for, well, a long time now. But if you follow it, it ends up with really weird doctrines. For example, Raphael some time past, wrote this:
This is what happens when you feel that sexual pleasure is a human right and can be enjoyed without involving a spouse – you descend into the church regulating prostitution for it’s members to provide people with sexual release.
Anyways, this seems to be an unproductive discussion at this point. Neither of us three seems to be convinced. You can continue if you like, but I’m going to shake the dust off my feet as it were and devote my time where it will make more of an impact.
Bringing that old comment up again, eh? I was trying to sardonically point out that since sex is already commodified you may as well allow prostitution. At least it’s honest about being a market transaction unlike a lot of other things.
The Sexual Marketplace isn’t ideal but it’s what we’ve been given. The Church should allow its members to participate in it without the massive handicap of having to remain virgins.
What’s so wrong about having sex with someone you’re dating? What’s wrong with a few hookups, especially if you’re a man?
And of course you’re going to just walk away from this. You haven’t read any of the literature, philosophy, and scholarly material that I’ve read, so this really does feel like talking to a brick wall. I’ve only stuck around because every other person I’ve talked to is even less informed and walks swaycl almost immediately.
I bring it up again because it shows people where your ideology leads.
Very well, let’s try a different approach. Let me see if I can summarize your points, and you correct me where I’m wrong in my perception of your ideology. I will try and build in the order that I see the principles you’ve been sharing build on each other.
1) You believe God could not foresee the future or didn’t plan for the future when inspiring the Bible – I’m not sure which.
2) You believe the humans who wrote down the Bible were only inspired so far as to write down meaning for the culture (time and place) that they existed in.
3) You believe the Bible is not inerrant – at least, not in our culture, it may have been in the culture it was written.
4) You believe the church should transpose scripture into a new form for today’s culture/context using modern philosophy to fix any issues God left unaddressed and account for culture drift.
5) You believe that the only things that are sin are those that are explicitly called sin in the Bible.
6) You believe the church has to adjust for cultural changes and has the authority to reclassify behaviours as sin or not as it sees is appropriate for the culture.
7) You believe that sex is an inalienable right, and since God does not guarantee sex in today’s culture, the church should provide one.
8) You believe that the church creating or condoning morally lawful prostitution would be preferable to the culture’s “Sexual Marketplace”.
Where am I correct in understanding your views and where am I not?
I’ve been over all this stuff with you before, but you still don’t get it.
1. A text with a finite number of words cannot address every possible circumstance or moral issue that may arise. That is simply a limitation of written texts. It is a brute fact that the Bible does not adress anything resembling the present world after the Sexual Revolution.
2. The authors of the texts that make up the Bible were people who lived in a specific time and were writing to a specific audience. You can’t read the texts in a vacuum and totally disregard the cultural context they were written in.
3. I’ve studied the cultures (as it pertains to sex and marriage) of the Ancient Near East, the 1st century Greco-Roman World, Second Temple Judaism, and the culture of 21st century North America. Reading the Bible, I see texts that speak to the former 3 ancient cultures, but has very little to say to 21st century North America on the matter. Even basic terms like marriage no longer mean the same thing.
4. Given some of the works, I quoted I don’t think “modern” is the best description. Modern in comparison to the Bible I guess. Philosophy and literature are very important, providing valuable insight. Webster showed us “the skull beneath the skin” but the Puritans closed the theatres. A Christian who reads the Bible but not Dante and Shakespeare may as well not be a Christian at all. “God prefers an uncircumcised heart to a castrated mind”
5. Where there is no law there is no transgression- Romans 4:15. If anything you’re the one who is not being faithful to the Biblical text by adding to it and inventing new sins that aren’t in there.
6. Because no written law can adress every circumstance and because “no norm is applicable to chaos”, someone has to be able to stand above and outside the law. “All law s based on a decision” and someone has to decide on the exception. But books can’t make decisions. God does not involve Himself in day to day administration and doesn’t answer requests for clarification on the texts he left us. That role must be fulfilled by the Church, who excercises God’s sovereignty on earth. The Church can suspend the normal rules on sexual activity outside of marriage, in response to the crisis we are in. Nearly everyone would agree that there are exceptions to laws against lying (there’s even one in the Book of Exodus), stealing, etc.
7. Strictly speaking, nobody has a natural right to anything. But people should be granted the right to the pursuit of sex. People shouldn’t have unreasonable obstacles imposed on them, and restricting sexual activity to marriage is (currently) an unreasonable obstacle.
8. I’d much rather the Church allow sexual activity between mature adults who are dating. More casual arrangements as well? Maybe. I don’t think prostitution is ideal, and I don’t think it’s something I’d ever resort to. Perhaps some very hopeless classes may need to take that route. That said, from my studies I have learned that prostitution was legal, even in ancient Israel. Being a prostitute was considered shameful, but it was tolerated as a necessary service. The two prostitutes who had a dispute over a baby could appear before the king without any fear of being flogged or jailed for their profession. This stance of “shameful but legal” has been the norm in most periods of human history. In cultures where things like dating didn’t exist, prostitution was the solution for men who weren’t married yet or were away from their wife. In Roman culture, men tended to get married later than women but they not remaining virgins during that time. Far from it. No human society has ever existed where everyone, both men and women, remained virgins before marriage. This even applies to Christian societies where sex outside of marriage was considered a sin. Every “traditional” society had a massive prostitution industry, even Victorian England. One interesting side effect of the Sexual Revolution is that the occurrence of actual prostitution (porn and the like is another can of worms) decreased. The “traditional” solution for horny men was either visit a prostitute or deflower some other man’s virgin daughter. Our society now has the concept of a girlfriend and the concept of an independent woman living outside her father’s household. Of course, in the ancient world “independent woman living outside her father’s household” was synonymous with prostitute, which should show you how much things have changed. Your own views on sex outside of marriage are the ones that will lead to more prostitution, not mine. My own views can be summed up as “it’s hard enough just getting a first date. You want me to get married too!?”
Ok, so, let’s start with #1.
If you’re looking at the Bible as a codified list of every sin explicitly mentioned – then yes, I agree, it could not. However, it is a book of principles, and those can be applied to all situations, which is why the Bible says:
“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” – 2 Timothy 3:16-17
And as much as the culture and society change – God doesn’t, and so those principles are eternal. What you’re seeking to do is change the core principles, and that is not something one can do. God created them – they are perfect. You may not like them, and they may be difficult to adhere to because our society has diverted from biblical principles so far, but the Bible doesn’t say it will be easy, quite the opposite:
“and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” – Matthew 10:22
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.” – Matthew 24:9-10
You want the church to change God’s laws, but the church has no right. The church cannot supercede God. It often tries, which is why we have warnings such as:
“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.” – 2 Timothy 4:3-4
And this is exactly what you’re trying to do – change things to suit your own passions. You want permission to sin. You want to be your own god rather than follow God. You are chasing a myth – that you can somehow change God’s words and yet still claim to follow Him. We’re not going to do better than He did. When we think we can – well, those are the thoughts that led to the angels rebelling and Adam and Eve falling. It’s why we live in a broken world.
This experience here is not intended to be easy – it’s intended to be painful, to show us what happens when you go against God. Your response seems to be to double down and try to change who God is rather than to learn the lesson and follow Him.
And that’s why all the rest doesn’t make sense to you – because you’re starting with the premise that you would make a better god than God does because you’re not happy with how things are turning out, and instead of recognize the cause as sin, you think the cause is that God didn’t plan well enough.
I left a very detailed response to your last comment and you didn’t let it post. I know it’s not an issue of you having not seen it yet, because you’ve since posted other comments on the site. I’m not going to write it again. It’s rather dishonest to leave up your misrepresentation of my views and not let me respond to it.
You are incredibly impatient. You realize the world doesn’t revolve around you, right? I have a half a million readers on the blog every year. I don’t even know how many emails, comments, etc. I get and I try to respond to all the questions. I’m three months behind on my anonymous questions – and a lot of it is because I have spent HOURS, maybe days at this point answering your comments. Your comments are long and very repetitive, often giving no new ideas or information, and it take a long time to sift through them to see if there’s anything of value. I didn’t even read the last one past the first point because I simply do not have time and it showed where you went off the rails.
You can wait your turn like everyone else does. You are the ONLY one who throws a temper tantrum about it – and while I’m in the middle of writing a response to you no less! If you were my child, you’d be sent to your room and allowed to come out when you were able to act civil. This is another reason why you are on permanent moderation.
So, here’s what I’m going to do – I’ll respond to one comment from you a week at most – no more. This is not a promise to respond to one a week, this is a limit. Make them count.
That’s a good idea, I’ll continue to pray more people do the personal work they are seeking and see the light.
Why is this thread recycled after many points its making have been debunked in the comments section? After reading many of the other comments in the thread thats the question I came up with.
Oh, very simply – because I don’t believe they’ve been debunked at all. From my perspective, the post has held up to all the arguments against it.
Interesting how you filter replies that don’t spin your view..
Do you see how many responses there are here that disagree with me? I mean, if you’re going to try accusing me of that, at least take 5 seconds and read the comments section – anyone can show you that’s not the case. Otherwise you look pretty silly.
Well sir, I figured, and I’m probably correct, that you don’t post all counter points unless “you” feel it has merit. No way to prove it unless one had access to you data base, which we wont. Silly no, correct, yes.
Well, that’s not entirely accurate. I let spam bots filter a lot of it, so I guess they’re deciding if it has merit or not.
And then often people will double-post a comment, so I don’t bother approving both, because it’s redundant.
Along the same lines if someone just keeps posting the same comments over and over again, but worded slightly differently, then I’m not going to post it, because, it’s redundant and I don’t want to waste people’s time.
Excessively rude comments I have removed, but that’s pretty rare.
So, yes, I filter based on “merit”, but that isn’t dependent on them agreeing with me or not – that’s not part of my criteria.
As for access to my database – no, of course not, that would be a breach of privacy. But it wouldn’t make a difference. I mean, I don’t keep deleted comments around, it’s a waste of database storage.
Now, if you want to make a blog where you allow everything and anything, go ahead, be my guest. I think you’ll be overrun by ads for t-shirts, generic Viagra, spellcasters and more within a month and get delisted, but have at it if that’s the route you want to go.
* Well, I guess my points been made and has merit. We’ve had conversations in the past about your data collection and analysis of the fore mentioned facts on the topic. (Skewed) to support your theory but I notice whenever it got close to having to admit flaws you shut down, stop responding, or cherry picked one data point out of a multi point reply to manipulate the conversation, which of course leaves viewers with an inaccurate analysis.
* For example:
* 47% of families say porn is a problem in their home (Focus on the Family, October 1, 2003) (your data points are from Focus on the Family, a Christian-based group who leans Christian and bias towards masturbation. That’s skewed and incorrect to make judgments on the whole population/society.
* 29% of born again adults in the U.S. feel it is morally acceptable to view movies with explicit sexual be-haviour (The Barna Group) what are we supposed to do with this number? This again is skewed, “born-again adults” are not the greater population, their “Christian men” therefore, you can’t apply socially accepted practices of the whole society (population) against of group of “born again men”. “why do married men masturbate” you’re cherry picking to support “your” view, not the whole society.
* The Barna Group: a evangelical Christian polling firm based in Ventura, California. (Christian skewed) their data base leans Christian, I can gather they called Christian males.
* The below numbers Skewed from the start:
* 600 Christian men” surveyed:
* 82% of these have “self-sex” on average once a week,
* 10% have sex with self 5-10 times per month.
* 6% more than 15 times per month, 1% more than 20 times a month.
* 13% of Christian married men said they felt it was normal. All skewed Christian leaning data.
I posit you really should rename the title to “why married Christian men masturbate” then the studies would make sense, otherwise it’s deceiving to the greater population as a whole. You’re ignoring a huge chunk of society and making assumptions on their beliefs.
I doubt you’ll change the title, but if you decide to be accurate and do so then you would have an strong case of Christian married men. Till then it leaves much of the general public answers that aren’t a true assessment.
Anyway, I look forward to seeing this post since you don’t filter And let the general public who stumbles onto this have a chance at understanding the data is skewed and then make an assessment. Hopefully they will come to their own conclusions and realize that married men do masturbate, and it’s a normal human behavior.
If you add “Christian” to your title and it’ll make sense.
No, I was intentional about the title. Just because the rest of the world doesn’t recognize sin doesn’t mean they are immune to it or that it doesn’t negatively impact their lives. I’m not going to ask an atheist about their recognition of sin in their life – that wouldn’t make any sense.
Whether they’re Christian or not, it’s still the same reasons. As is commonly said “the only difference between Christians and non-Christians is that we know we’re sinners”.
Never posted my proof of your bias (skewed study on masturbation ) in our conversation? That’s curious.. thought I’d let you know I was waiting but I guess you just want to control the conversation, filter what’s viewable, whether it’s factual or not.
Ladies my comment is the only one you know to pay attention to. IF YOU CAUGHT THEM ONCE THEN HES CHEATED AND YOU HAVE THE APPROVAL TO GET A DIVORCE.
LISTEN TO ME LADIES WHO GIVES A CRAP HOW MANY MEN DO IT OR DONT DO IT. DOES YOUR MAN DO IT? THAT IS ALL YOU NEED TO WORRY ABOUT. SAVE UP SOME MONEY AND LEAVE HIS BUTT ASAP OR YOU WILL HAVE THE MOST PAINFUL LIFE ANY WOMAN CAN LIVE.
THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW THEY WILL NEVER STOP NO MATTER WHAT!! THEY ONLY GET BETTER AT HIDING IT. I GIVE YOU MY WORD. EVEN THE MAN WHO WROTE THIS PIECE. HES NOT DONE WITH PORN AND HE KNOWS IT. HES GOING TO STRUGGLE FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE AND IF HES NOT PAYING ATTENTION HE WILL GET PULLED RIGHT BACK IN AGAIN. BE HONEST WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU LOOKED AT PORN? I BET AT LEAST ONCE IN THE LAST 5 YEARS.
JUST BE HONEST THE LAST TIME YOU LOOKED AT ANOTHER WOMAN NAKED?
LADIES YOU CAUGHT YOUR MAN THEN GET OUT FAST. THEY NEVER STOP.
YOU EITHER LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT OR GET A DIVORCE. THOSE ARE YOUR OPTIONS.
THESE MEN WILL NEVER STOP. PLEASE BELIEVE ME. DONT WASTE YOUR LIFE LIVING IN THIS KIND OF PAIN. SAVE YOURSELF. DONT LET THEM TAKE YOU DOWN WITH THEM. LADIES SAVE YOURSELVES. ITS TO LATE FOR HIM. TRUST ME.
I mean, if you’re going to go with this rule, then I think it should be even – any woman who reads a romantic novel or watches a romantic comedy should be considered cheating as well.
But, I think both stances are not loving, nor realistic. This position you take will lead to three likely outcomes:
1) You will never find a husband – because trying to find one that hasn’t succumbed to this at some point is unlikely.
2) You will find a husband who never wants sex – he has either such a low drive that it never occurred to him to masturbate, or he’s so traumatized by something that he is repulsed by anything sexual (including his wife)
3) You will find a husband who is a pathological liar and very good at hiding his actions.
Neither of these is good. Why are you trying to find a husband who never sins? They don’t exist.
And you are incorrect – there are many who have in the past and chose to stop. I’ve talked to a lot of them and they go on to have very happy and fulfilling marriages.
Why aren’t the wives satisfying their husbands with sex or by masturbating him themselves? I masturbate daily becuase my wife may as well be a fish.
It’s a good question, but it doesn’t absolve your responsibility. One sin doesn’t cancel out another.
How about if you masterbate by yourself only fantasizing about your wife because she only wants to be intimate once a month or less? Yes we have occasionally done it together but it takes much encouragement to do that. I have even told her about the solo stimulation times and have not gotten a positive response from her.
For myself, I think that’s not much better – you are still engaging in sex without your spouse.
what is the other sin not cancelled out? If a dog humps your leg, is it a sin or nature?
Dogs don’t get married. Plus, we have sinful natures. It can be both nature and sin.
Yah, it’s not a sin. If want to label it as one that’s on you, but it’s normal behavior and being normal isn’t a sin.
Perhaps our definitions are different. What is your definition of a sin?
Because I think sinning is natural behavior. It’s unnatural not to sin – which is what made Jesus an acceptable saviour – He was not normal because He didn’t sign.
If i understand the category here its about the normal human act of masturbation. Yet, you are asking the question from the spiritual perspective
Sin defined below implies a normal God give act is a transgression. Yet, masturbation is not mentioned in religious text as a “law” “serious fault”. I believe if it was and as important as implied it would have been addressed. One can quote the “spill seed” verse and others which can be read with interpretations leaving to vagueness. So Im not clear on why the question to define sin pertains here. sēn, sĭnnoun
The Bible was not written in one specific year or in a single location. The Bible is a collection of writings, and the earliest ones were set down nearly 3500 years ago. In those early societies there was no writing as yet and people passed on these oral accounts with “great detail and accuracy”. In looking at all these dates, the important thing to remember is that when the Bible was written is not as important as what was written. However, the when is important also as we sense how God’s presence persisted through the centuries and gave us “in the fullness of time” the full-orbed revelation of salvation.
So 3500 years in the making, centuries of input, “great detail and accuracy” “important what was written” “Gods persistence”, and masturbation never came up? They never thought to include it? They were too shy to discuss masturbation?Masturbation in moderation has been with man kind for 3500 years plus and a God given activity. Yes, people will read into scripture and find vague ideas to apply/make implications but the truth is if you think about the idea of masturbation it makes sense it’s a natural human activity.
So I think your asking me to respond from a perspective of inclusion by defining sin in this category of masturbation? . Sin is real in many areas, God makes them clear. I’m not denying sin, AKA: One of Gods laws, just not in masturbation, it’s not one of his laws. Instead maybe we feel ashamed due to the negative input we keep getting by theologians?
The reality of masturbation is it’s a natural act and Catholicism/religon has created a shame based approach to manipulating people. That is, if you take human nature and label it as bad.
Yes, Jim has relationship work to do with his wife, bonding at all levels to get to a better place where her “being a fish” is not an issue. Females are very emotional creatures and this plays into the sex side as well. So yes, if you don’t connect in other areas sex will end up being one of those catagories you will be devoid. A lot of open vulnerable discussions need to be had. Yes, even after alignment between a couple masturbation would continue, it’s human nature. Funny how male masturbation gets a bad rap. Religious perspective says, “It’s okay to masturbate “together” but never alone because he think of someone else or past experience. To have an orgasm without her outside marriage even in thought is bad. Well, the fact is 60% of women reported that
their top fantasy involves a situation with their current partner. That means 40% are NOT thinking of the partner, same goes for men. That means Christianity is supporting 40% of both men & women the excuse to think outside the marriage and masturbate together so she can orgasm? The “Rub” to that acknowledgment or shall we say manipulation is that again facts get in the way of this whole conversation. Women must have figured this masturbation loop and influenced the concept of shared masturbation so they could get an orgasm. Truth be told Only 18% of women report that
they can reach orgasm with penile-vaginal penetration alone. About 75% of women would never orgasm if they follow the no masturbation rule. Think about this, 75% would never
orgasm, never for all of 85 years of life!
Every other woman needs some sort of clitoral stimulation, the clitoris is external so the reality is God designed this for a reason, possibly to self-explore and share together. So sure we can follow the Christian/Cathlolic/religious views, but remember, good for the goose good for the gander 75% of women would never enjoy what God designed for them to experience, Never in their life??? Men would experience the joy EVERY TIME… Yah, I don’t think God wanted women to go orgasm less. Masturbation is natural or 75% of women are NOT MEANT to feel the pleasure.
I will accept that it’s a natural act – I will also point out that we naturally have a sinful nature. So, a natural act doesn’t mean it’s a good act. It’s natural to lie, steal and kill as well. It’s unnatural to do what is right. Guess which one I’m going to support.
And no, I’m not supporting fantasizing about someone other than your spouse. If I say I don’t support abortion, that doesn’t mean I do support abandoning babies in the street, even though it’s something that does happen as an alternative. They’re both wrong.
Oh, and the 18% of women that can’t reach orgasm with penetration – that number is from college-age girls. It goes up considerably in marriage (30% average) and continues to increase the longer you are married. Also, those who learn anatomy score higher as well (nurses, for example, score higher than non-nurses) – so learn anatomy.
And again, you are setting up false dichotomies – just because a woman can’t orgasm from penetration doesn’t mean she has to orgasm alone by masturbation. That completely removes the option of manual sex, oral sex, vibrators and more. Why are you jumping past all those?
And not all men orgasm every time they have sex either – let’s put that stereotype to rest as well.
A lot to unpack here…. your comments are numbered, mine follow. readers can decide. (if you allow it to pass your personal filter because it’s your website and you want to filter like Twitter did before Musk made it free.
1. “I will accept that it’s a natural act – I will also point out that we naturally have a sinful nature.” “So, a natural act doesn’t mean it’s a good act.”
Glad to see you understand the Natural aspect of masturbation but again as I have said, “making it a sinful act is my point it’s a religious spin and those susceptible to that spin would be misguided. It doesn’t mean it’s a bad act either, again, your spinning the spiritual and labeling a healthy human act.
2. “I’m not supporting fantasizing about someone other than your spouse”
Firstly, I’m not discussing you, you can fantasize as you wish, that’s the point everyone does and do it differently, it’s human. There are presumably millions of successful marriages where masturbation/regular sex and past memories help them get over the top and orgasm. I’m discussing majority/averages of humans, people who haven’t spent as much time reviewing the topic. You spin religious bias, that’s fine but it’s not facts, just “beliefs” not earthly fact. I have read the same data and see different facts, that’s fine.
3. Oh, and the 18% of women that can’t reach orgasm with penetration – that number is from college-age girls. It goes up considerably in marriage (30% average) and continues to increase the longer you are married. Also, those who learn anatomy score higher as well (nurses, for example, score higher than non-nurses) – so learn anatomy.
Firstly, no need to try and confuse readers with age break downs, orgasms are a lifetime event. But you do confirm that manual stimulation is needed as it gets worse as women age. So masturbation would actually help these people? Hmm.
Let’s look at some data that most likely didn’t include college age girls:
consider the Hite Report from the 1970s (a North American study that sampled approximately 2,000 women) results indicated that among those women who reported having had at least one orgasm before and who indicated being sexually active, 30% reported regularly reaching orgasm during intercourse, 12% rarely reached orgasm, 19% only reached orgasm if their clitoris was simultaneously stimulated, and 29% reported never orgasming during intercourse under any circumstances [3]. In the aforementioned Swedish study, the questions were asked somewhat differently, but researchers found that 55% of the women reported having reached orgasm during intercourse solely from penile movements at least once before [2].
Thus, when you average across these two studies and the others that I have seen, it looks like around half of heterosexual women are at least sometimes orgasmic as a result of penetration alone, whereas the other half either require added clitoral stimulation or other sexual activities in order to climax. So, based on the evidence I’ve seen, the 75% figure that’s frequently thrown around is probably a bit too high.
Foot notes:
[1] Kinsey, A., Pomeroy, W. B., Martin, C. E., & Gebhard, P. (1953). Sexual behavior in the human female. Philadelphia: Saunders.
[2] Fugl-Meyer, K. S., Oberg, K., Lundberg, P. O., Lewin, B., & Fugl-Meyer, A. (2006). On orgasm, sexual techniques, and erotic perceptions in 18- to 74-year-old Swedish women. Journal of Sexual Medicine, 3, 56-68.
[3] Hite, S. (1976). The Hite Report. New York: Dell.
4. “So learn anatomy”.
Okay, lets address the elephant in the room, you presumed a few things and made an emotional error. One, I’m medical and phycological based. Telling me to “learn anatomy” shows your knee jerk frustration to the topic and resorting to “name calling” which when your study phycology you learn is a sign of losing a conversation and resorting to name calling.
5. “You are setting up false dichotomies”
A dichotomy is a contrast between two things. When there are two ideas, especially two opposed ideas — like war and peace, love and hate, masturbation and no masturbation— you have a dichotomy. I’m setting up a true dichotomy, that’s why it’s a conversation. For example, inconsistent discipline styles between the two concepts. The good cop versus the bad cop leaving the reader totally confused and a developed fear of the bad cop, AKA: Religious view verses all of humanity.
6. “Just because a woman can’t orgasm from penetration doesn’t mean she has to orgasm alone by masturbation. That completely removes the option of manual sex, oral sex, vibrators and more. Why are you jumping past all those? And not all men orgasm every time they have sex either – let’s put that stereotype to rest as well.
Not clear on this one, you say they don’t have to masturbate on their own so I’ve removed manual, oral, vibrators and more? What, that’s the point to orgasm they need external manipulation and masturbation is one of the good ones. Lastly, to your stereotypes I’ll add that of course I’m not forgetting men at times have issues or dysfunctions with orgasms.
My points are sound and anchored medically and phycological. Masturbation is needed and important part of a human existance.